RUF CTR Conversion, Value discussion

[Jim2]

Anyone recall a thread from the mid 2000s where a fellow in Europe bought a written off CTR and was transplanting the drivetrain into his own chassis?

I went to a friend today, he´s building a RUF CTR!!!! *PICS*

Long time no see.... here's some updated pics from my friends RUF building..!

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

That sounds quite pretentious.

Yes it does. I thought I would try to finagle my way onto this forum, since I probably could due to the fact I have a real RUF BTR III minus the motor I should have kept 20 years ago.

If I managed to do that, I could dialog with guys, a couple of which who may have the motor I need sitting in storage (even if not numbers matching). Therein I may have hope to have sort of a non-matching numbers real RUF. That would be fine by me since my original costs aren’t a big factor. Or I may dialog with those guys there and present the possibility of selling my car to someone who has such a motor that would want to do the same. Either way it’s worth the try, and I would be honest about all things regarding my car. Never give up they say, and so I continue to try, before I stick a 3.8 RS NA 350hp motor in the car myself and enjoy it as you say.

With so many projects, this one I am willing to let go of. I’ve grown older and some priorities have changed if you will. Most of all, as I said to Matt Monson, there is no space to drive a bad beast in this country. Do you want to look over your shoulder every time you go over 62 mph? That is the reality. Try to imagine that in a RUF! Lose your license and you’ll be riding the bus, trains and subway with the Japanese. Not me. I really hate to say it, but the 69E Sporto might be more interesting than a RUF BTR III if I were to drive around in this country. Count yourselves lucky. I chose my journey. I do love working on them and buying/selling however. If I opt for the 350hp NA 3.8 964 motor which I planned to install and have all ready to go, I’ll enjoy that too. Maybe that’s why I went that NA WAY in the first place years ago. It was less to maintain, more practical in my case.

bernie

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by Mocker

The first rule of Ruf club is...

ENGINE


Yes I know. I found one just recently but in a Porsche. It was an original BTR III Motronic, same as my car and would have fit nicely. JMS935 turned me off on it due to cost. It owed the guy too much via the car it was in so he wanted 50k plus my 3.8 which I value at 20K in it's fresh condition with mods. I don't know if you followed those posts. Therefore, I still seek a BTR motor, if the price is right. If I wait a little longer, one might turn up. Never give up!

bernie

[JMS935]

Bernie, have you tried tracking down the guy you sold the RUF motor to that you’re trying to now replace? That would be the first place I’d start. I know that’s asking the obvious, so forgive me if you’ve already addressed this and I just missed it.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Bernie, have you tried tracking down the guy you sold the RUF motor to that you’re trying to now replace? That would be the first place I’d start. I know that’s asking the obvious, so forgive me if you’ve already addressed this and I just missed it.

It's long gone i.e. it was out of the question by the time I could get to it due to 6 months later when the ins co finally paid out. By then, even a year or so later, left out in humid climate, it was too corroded. That motor is long gone. Everything else I was able to save.

bernie

[JMS935]

Got it. Contact RUF, maybe they’ll have a lead for you, or maybe another RUF motor instead. With all the time you’re spending on the forum looking for one, you should at least make an attempt at contacting the original source, even though they don’t build these any longer.

[911heaven]

Still way ahead JMS935. I spent weeks during Feb. - March on the phone and via mail with RUF Germany. They were quite busy with logistics going to the Geneva show with the new CTR, so it took some time. Through Manuel Mayer, got word that Marcel RUF said they could build a new engine for 35,000 euro top estimate, or rebuild the whole car for 200-300,000 euros, saying it would look like a new car, smell like a new car.

Regarding only motor they said I'd have to take my car to Ishida brothers in Kyoto for installation. They are an hours drive from here in Ashiya, the original sole RUF dealer in Japan. When I sat down with them, told them what Marcel RUF had said, they just shook their heads saying no, it's too cheap! We'll call Marcel on Monday and get back to you. Thereafter the call came saying it will be between 60- 80,000 euros and possibly more due to some BTR parts are out of production.

Weeks later I rang up Manuel Mayer saying -- I'm not Japanese, I'm an American living in Japan. Moreover, I said even the Porsche dealers mark prices up on parts 2-3 times. That's why no one buys from them. I said then to Manuel I'm not going to give up on my car. He said too, don't give up.

bernie

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Still way ahead JMS935. I spent weeks during Feb. - March on the phone and via mail with RUF Germany. They were quite busy with logistics going to the Geneva show with the new CTR, so it took some time. Through Manuel Mayer, got word that Marcel RUF said they could build a new engine for 35,000 euro top estimate, or rebuild the whole car for 200-300,000 euros, saying it would look like a new car, smell like a new car.

Regarding only motor they said I'd have to take my car to Ishida brothers in Kyoto for installation. They are an hours drive from here in Ashiya, the original sole RUF dealer in Japan. When I sat down with them, told them what Marcel RUF had said, they just shook their heads saying no, it's too cheap! We'll call Marcel on Monday and get back to you. Thereafter the call came saying it will be between 60- 80,000 euros and possibly more due to some BTR parts are out of production.

Weeks later I rang up Manuel Mayer saying -- I'm not Japanese, I'm an American living in Japan. Moreover, I said even the Porsche dealers mark prices up on parts 2-3 times. That's why no one buys from them. I said then to Manuel I'm not going to give up on my car. He said too, don't give up.

bernie

That original quote relayed to you from Marcel by someone else doesn’t even sound like Marcel. I doubt he ever said that. I’ve asked him within the last couple of years if he could build a BTR motor for me, and was told that it’s not possible. That’s what Marcel told me directly. The 60-80,000 euros sounds like what it’d take for them to remanufacture whatever parts they need to on a one-off basis to build the motor for you. It’s probably not worth the cost, which is why they don’t make the parts anymore, nor is anyone willing to pay those prices. It’s too bad they don’t just bite the bullet and remanufacture a limited run of all the parts needed to bring the prices down enough to make it worthwhile so some of us can buy a motor from them.

It’s time to move on. Sell what you’ve got as is, or install the NA motor you have in the RUF and be done with it. That my two cents.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

That original quote relayed to you from Marcel by someone else doesn’t even sound like Marcel. I doubt he ever said that. I’ve asked him within the last couple of years if he could build a BTR motor for me, and was told that it’s not possible. That’s what Marcel told me directly. The 60-80,000 euros sounds like what it’d take for them to remanufacture whatever parts they need to on a one-off basis to build the motor for you. It’s probably not worth the cost, which is why they don’t make the parts anymore, nor is anyone willing to pay those prices. It’s too bad they don’t just bite the bullet and remanufacture a limited run of all the parts needed to bring the prices down enough to make it worthwhile so some of us can buy a motor from them.

It’s time to move on. Sell what you’ve got as is, or install the NA motor you have in the RUF and be done with it. That my two cents.

Thank you JMS935 for your advice and honest opinion, always. I appreciate it very much, and your help! I agree, time to move on and sell the package, or in sum of parts. Or, just make it into a fast Porsche like I had planned from 20 years ago. Since then I'd believed the myth that a WOP RUF wasn't a real RUF. That was told to me nearly 20 years ago by some RUF associated guy in Florida who I called at the time, so for 20 years it was my plan to just build it into a fast, good looking Porsche. I was always working on other cars and just saving this one for last. It was always my baby. something I had planned never to sell.

By the way, I can assure you that Marcel Ruf said that. I was told to be patient, (and waited for weeks) by Manuel Mayer. I was on 9 week holiday and trying to make some progress. Conversely, Ruf Germany was trying to get all their cars prepped for the Geneva Auto show. We are talking about a two month time span. Finally I get an email from Manuel saying -- I spoke with Marcel Ruf, head of the workshop, call me. As said, new motor 20-35000 euro or send the whole car @ 200-300000 euro all rough not Ruf estimates, which I'd only requested on a new engine.

I had been very clear with them that I had no engine, that flood damage had rendered the motor useless and that I no longer had it. I sent them pix of the corroded motor, the car, engine no, trans no, Vin no. Also I sent pix of my Japanese title which has the manufacturer of the car, RUF, and original engine no. on the title, as well as my name as the owner.

The only disclaimer may be that Marcel wasn't properly informed that I had no motor at all. He should have been if he wasn't, for I was very clear in numerous emails with staff there, and numerous phone calls over 2 months. I know the names of some of the people there by now. However, I can imagine what an inopportune time it was for them leading up to the debut of the new 30th anniversary CTR RUF, and stressing out on getting all their cars to Geneva, six cars Manuel said.

bernie

[JMS935]

You probably mean W09, not WOP. That’s more than just RUF, that prefix is given to all German manufacturers that produce less than 500 units annually. But you’re correct in that it does indicate a ground up build by RUF, not just a conversion. So if you’ve got all of the other original parts with the car sans engine, you should still get some decent value out of it.

[911heaven]

Sorry, late night drinking up in the mountains with frogs chirping all around me. My car is WOP. Maybe I was dreaming of an IPO and got confused.

[911heaven]

I was just wondering if anyone knew the difference between a BTR III motor no stamped BTR34 XXXM vs one stamped BTR34 XXK? I've seen two numbers like the former on BTRIII, and my original no. was the latter with a K instead of M. Hmmm....

bernie

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Sorry, late night drinking up in the mountains with frogs chirping all around me. My car is WOP. Maybe I was dreaming of an IPO and got confused.

I thought you said it has a RUF title. If so, that should be a W09 prefix for the VIN. If it is Porsche, then it would be WP0, not W0P. Call me confused...I'm not following this if you have a RUF title and the VIN starts with W0P, that sounds like it's got a typo to me. With it being a RUF title, it should be W09. If it were on a Porsche title, I'd still say it is a typo, but should be WP0. Either the P and the 0 were transposed if it were a Porsche VIN, or the 9 was mistaken (as in read backwards) for a P if it were a RUF VIN. Is it possible when you imported and transferred title into your name in Japan that this mix up was made? Do you have a copy of the title you submitted when you originally imported it? That could help correct (what I think is an) error all of these years later. If not, I think that car could be problematic for you to sell. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the missing engine might only be one hurdle to clear. I don't know anything about Japan, so I have no idea how easy or difficult it may be to correct this. It could be as simple as showing the body panel VINs don't match the title to your DMV, but then again they may question if those are even legit based on the state of the rest of the car. Somebody else please chime in if I'm off base here, but this sounds like another problem altogether.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

I thought you said it has a RUF title. If so, that should be a W09 prefix for the VIN. If it is Porsche, then it would be WP0, not W0P. Call me confused...I'm not following this if you have a RUF title and the VIN starts with W0P, that sounds like it's got a typo to me. With it being a RUF title, it should be W09. If it were on a Porsche title, I'd still say it is a typo, but should be WP0. Either the P and the 0 were transposed if it were a Porsche VIN, or the 9 was mistaken (as in read backwards) for a P if it were a RUF VIN. Is it possible when you imported and transferred title into your name in Japan that this mix up was made? Do you have a copy of the title you submitted when you originally imported it? That could help correct (what I think is an) error all of these years later. If not, I think that car could be problematic for you to sell. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the missing engine might only be one hurdle to clear. I don't know anything about Japan, so I have no idea how easy or difficult it may be to correct this. It could be as simple as showing the body panel VINs don't match the title to your DMV, but then again they may question if those are even legit based on the state of the rest of the car. Somebody else please chime in if I'm off base here, but this sounds like another problem altogether.

I think the a priori concept is the one we disagree on. Others may disagree too and so if you read back to the beginning of this thread, which is two years old, and when I first posted you'll see that I disagree with the former posts in general. I posted my opinion, and I can't presume to be correct, but one person agreed and confirmed what I'd said. Once you read that, you'll understand where I'm coming from. Once again, I don't care if I'm correct. I would only like to ascertain truth.

bernie

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Despite any former analysis on the thread, having researched a bit too, I would argue that any car RUF built from the ground up is a real RUF regardless of the vin POR vs WOR. Obviously, the WOR will command a premium, but that doesn’t detract from all their cars being real RUF cars, quite to the contrary. I only mean cars that were built from the ground up in the factory in Germany.

Bernie, if this is the post you are referring to, I still don’t follow. What do you mean by POR vs WOR? Neither of those abbreviations is the W0P abbreviation you referenced earlier, so I’m only getting more confused. Every Porsche VIN will start with WP0, while every RUF VIN will start with W09. What are the first 3 digits of the VIN for your car? And again, what do you mean by POR vs WOR? I assume the POR is short for Porsche, but I don’t know what WOR is short for, as it’s got nothing to do with RUF, which was the context of your response.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Bernie, if this is the post you are referring to, I still don’t follow. What do you mean by POR vs WOR? Neither of those abbreviations is the W0P abbreviation you referenced earlier, so I’m only getting more confused. Every Porsche VIN will start with WP0, while every RUF VIN will start with W09. What are the first 3 digits of the VIN for your car? And again, what do you mean by POR vs WOR? I assume the POR is short for Porsche, but I don’t know what WOR is short for, as it’s got nothing to do with RUF, which was the context of your response.

Sorry again JMS935. Its 4 in the morning here and I can see dawn on the horizon. You're right, WOP vs WO9. I made that typo when I posted first on this thread. Having had the car for 20 years, believing the myth all those years, the numbers sort of faded. Now that we have nailed them down, I still stand by my a priori concept, which by now you fully understand, having read it in the thread.

Again as said, I'm only seeking truth. Only truth wins here, not you or I.

Best,
bernie

[speednme1]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

I was just wondering if anyone knew the difference between a BTR III motor no stamped BTR34 XXXM vs one stamped BTR34 XXK? I've seen two numbers like the former on BTRIII, and my original no. was the latter with a K instead of M. Hmmm....

bernie

As far as I know Ruf did not stamp their BTR motors. They did stamp their transmissions. They were basically conversions done at RUF using 3.3 casing bored out to accept 3.4 Mahle pistons. The difference between a BT2 and 3 is that the 3 uses a Motronic Ecu. Why can’t you just have Ruf build you a motor, plenty of 3.3 motors in the market.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by speednme1

As far as I know Ruf did not stamp their BTR motors. They did stamp their transmissions. They were basically conversions done at RUF using 3.3 casing bored out to accept 3.4 Mahle pistons. The difference between a BT2 and 3 is that the 3 uses a Motronic Ecu. Why can’t you just have Ruf build you a motor, plenty of 3.3 motors in the market.

Cause they say they don’t make all of the parts needed for it anymore. Apparently the demand isn’t there, so they don’t produce these parts anymore. They can rebuild an already built RUF motor if you supply it to them, but they can’t convert a 3.3 stock turbo into their 3.4 BTR motor any longer. Or if they could, it would probably be so cost prohibitive to make whatever is needed on a one off basis, that nobody does it. So they just say they don’t do it anymore.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

I thought you said it has a RUF title. If so, that should be a W09 prefix for the VIN. If it is Porsche, then it would be WP0, not W0P. Call me confused...I'm not following this if you have a RUF title and the VIN starts with W0P, that sounds like it's got a typo to me. With it being a RUF title, it should be W09. If it were on a Porsche title, I'd still say it is a typo, but should be WP0. Either the P and the 0 were transposed if it were a Porsche VIN, or the 9 was mistaken (as in read backwards) for a P if it were a RUF VIN. Is it possible when you imported and transferred title into your name in Japan that this mix up was made? Do you have a copy of the title you submitted when you originally imported it? That could help correct (what I think is an) error all of these years later. If not, I think that car could be problematic for you to sell. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the missing engine might only be one hurdle to clear. I don't know anything about Japan, so I have no idea how easy or difficult it may be to correct this. It could be as simple as showing the body panel VINs don't match the title to your DMV, but then again they may question if those are even legit based on the state of the rest of the car. Somebody else please chime in if I'm off base here, but this sounds like another problem altogether.

Sorry again JMS935. It was quite late last night, and after 3 bottles of red wine, I couldn't quite nail down what I was saying. By RUF title, I meant what the government lists on the title here as the manufacturer of the car. The VIN here is what we are conjecturing about, but really shouldn't be because it is irrelevant. An in house built RUF IS A RUF regardless of the Vin whether WOP or W09. I'll post a pix of my title read RUF as manufacturer. The reasoning for that is because RUF is a recognized automobile manufacturer, not only in Germany but globally.

To the gentleman who just posted saying BTR motors weren't stamped BTR34XXX or XX (M or K), well that is just not true, at least on the cars they built in house, maybe 100 BTRs, 10 a year for 10 years?

bernie

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Sorry again JMS935. It was quite late last night, and after 3 bottles of red wine, I couldn't quite nail down what I was saying. By RUF title, I meant what the government lists on the title here as the manufacturer of the car. The VIN here is what we are conjecturing about, but really shouldn't be because it is irrelevant. An in house built RUF IS A RUF regardless of the Vin whether WOP or W09. I'll post a pix of my title read RUF as manufacturer. The reasoning for that is because RUF is a recognized automobile manufacturer, not only in Germany but globally.

To the gentleman who just posted saying BTR motors weren't stamped BTR34XXX or XX (M or K), well that is just not true, at least on the cars they built in house, maybe 100 BTRs, 10 a year for 10 years?

bernie

Bernie, just to correct you again, but you mean WPO or W09. It seems that Japan (assuming that the Japanese under RUF translates to manufacturer) doesn’t recognize the manufacturer of your car, just the conversion house, which is entirely wrong for registration purposes (in the rest of the world anyways). We can debate this forever and a day, but your car being a WP0ZZZ is a Porsche that has been modified by RUF, so it should state Porsche as the manufacturer on the title - not RUF. This is a FACT, it’s NOT an opinion that can be debated. The Japanese DMV obviously has the manufacturer and the conversion house confused, or maybe they could just care less about the origin of that car, which is going about car registration entirely wrong. Let’s be clear, the origin of that car is Porsche - not RUF, so it should state Porsche as the manufacturer. Even when RUF built their own cars in house that got designated a RUF W09 VIN, they still got the body/chassis from Porsche and then stamped their own VIN on it - a Porsche made body. So from that respect it’s still a Porsche, splitting hairs here, but just spelling it out to be clear.

Ironically, while the transposing issue I pointed out earlier wasn’t actually an issue, as you had just typed it wrong here in this thread, now after seeing your title I suspect you’ll still have issues selling that car if you export it for a whole different reason. The VIN prefix does NOT match the manufacturer of record on file with every DMV around the world, so that will pose a problem for anyone that wants to register that car here in the US (or I suspect anywhere else as well), especially since it’d need to be imported and clear customs with a VIN and manufacturer that don’t match up. I don’t know why it’s not a problem in Japan, or maybe it is and that’s just an error on your title. IF you market this car for sale worldwide, I would be upfront about this VIN/title issue even though you don’t see a problem with it, because there is a real world problem with it. I know you will adamantly oppose everything I just said, but again, I’m stating fact here, this isn’t in context with a debate on authenticity levels between a W09 RUF and a WP0 RUF. That’s a different debate, one for the Porsche community here, not in regards to titling a car. But even then, where there’s any questions about a car’s origin, referring back to its title usually clears up any doubts, but in this case it just muddies them even further.

I’m sure you feel your car might be more valuable because it states RUF as the manufacturer, not Porsche, but ask yourself how you go about extracting that value if you can’t transfer title to someone else due to the very reason you think it adds more value to your car. What a conundrum this is...I think you’ll need to correct your title before you can sell it, which in your mind will devalue the car. Hmmm...It sure is strange how this thread came full circle on a title that has a VIN and manufacturer that don’t align.