RUF CTR Conversion, Value discussion

[amg463]

This guy doesn't sell anything anyway JMS, he's just fishing for attention.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by amg463

This guy doesn't sell anything anyway JMS, he's just fishing for attention.

I’m not interested in buying anything, just trying to educate.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Bernie, just to correct you again, but you mean WPO or W09. It seems that Japan (assuming that the Japanese under RUF translates to manufacturer) doesn’t recognize the manufacturer of your car, just the conversion house, which is entirely wrong for registration purposes (in the rest of the world anyways). We can debate this forever and a day, but your car being a WP0ZZZ is a Porsche that has been modified by RUF, so it should state Porsche as the manufacturer on the title - not RUF. This is a FACT, it’s NOT an opinion that can be debated. The Japanese DMV obviously has the manufacturer and the conversion house confused, or maybe they could just care less about the origin of that car, which is going about car registration entirely wrong. Let’s be clear, the origin of that car is Porsche - not RUF, so it should state Porsche as the manufacturer. Even when RUF built their own cars in house that got designated a RUF W09 VIN, they still got the body/chassis from Porsche and then stamped their own VIN on it - a Porsche made body. So from that respect it’s still a Porsche, splitting hairs here, but just spelling it out to be clear.

Ironically, while the transposing issue I pointed out earlier wasn’t actually an issue, as you had just typed it wrong here in this thread, now after seeing your title I suspect you’ll still have issues selling that car if you export it for a whole different reason. The VIN prefix does NOT match the manufacturer of record on file with every DMV around the world, so that will pose a problem for anyone that wants to register that car here in the US (or I suspect anywhere else as well), especially since it’d need to be imported and clear customs with a VIN and manufacturer that don’t match up. I don’t know why it’s not a problem in Japan, or maybe it is and that’s just an error on your title. IF you market this car for sale worldwide, I would be upfront about this VIN/title issue even though you don’t see a problem with it, because there is a real world problem with it. I know you will adamantly oppose everything I just said, but again, I’m stating fact here, this isn’t in context with a debate on authenticity levels between a W09 RUF and a WP0 RUF. That’s a different debate, one for the Porsche community here, not in regards to titling a car. But even then, where there’s any questions about a car’s origin, referring back to its title usually clears up any doubts, but in this case it just muddies them even further.

I’m sure you feel your car might be more valuable because it states RUF as the manufacturer, not Porsche, but ask yourself how you go about extracting that value if you can’t transfer title to someone else due to the very reason you think it adds more value to your car. What a conundrum this is...I think you’ll need to correct your title before you can sell it, which in your mind will devalue the car. Hmmm...It sure is strange how this thread came full circle on a title that has a VIN and manufacturer that don’t align.

Hi JMS935! Thank you for all the good advice and information. I’ve learned a lot from you already. I’m certainly not an expert, just trying to follow the journey on this car I acquired 20 years ago. Back then I really didn’t know anything at all about RUF, I was much younger and dumber. I was thinking that you might have a RUF in your collection of cars. If so, and you don’t mind, please let me know what it is exactly. I’d be interested to know.

So what makes a (real) RUF a RUF? That is the rhetorical question that is quite ambiguous in many circles, at least in the early days of the BTR and CTR. I want to keep this short too, for as you say, it can be an opinionated hair splitting endless endeavor. I will concede that a non- wo9 ground up factory build on a woP is a complete RUF engine conversion. Technically, as you said it has a Porsche VIN and on title could be called a Porsche with a full RUF engine conversion including drivetrain etc. etc. according even to customer order, even according to aesthetic additions etc, all the extra gear they put on any wo9, or any full RUF engine conversion Porsche.

As you might notice on my title pix, this car was imported in Heisei 6, first month (Jan 1994 and not by me). I just brought up the exchange rate at the time then which was 100 yen to the USD. I know for a fact that this car came into Japan at 25 million yen then, and 15 million was paid out on the write off. That is 250K into Japan in 1994. I know this from the ins. Co. through the wrecker, who used to invite me out to hostess bars with the ins. Co people, lawyers, police etc. I know this for a fact.

The DMV here can and will do what they want with any import. The Japanese always do what they do according to their own laws and protocol. They certainly did and that is why it reads RUF on the title. I doubt that will be a problem if I ever export it as such. 16 or so years ago I had a 73RS car #101, the real deal. The Japanese DMV had carved their own number into the inner fender with a Chinese Kanji next to it. They do what they want.

There are some other points, but not worth fretting over. All the w09 white tubs weren’t manufactured by RUF, though they were blanks they could type their registered manufacturer number into (perhaps only 30%, thirty cars out of 100 BTRs?). They were manufactured by Porsche. This is really an invalid point, much like my 69E which has a body manufactured or built by Karmann. It has a Porsche VIN and is technically manufactured by Porsche.

I guess I still stand by my point that any in house full engine conversion Porsche that RUF built, is no less a RUF than any W09 vined RUF. They have the same gear, they come from the same factory and were sold as RUFs. Don’t you agree? The W09 vins are to be prioritized from a historical perspective I believe and will command collector sentiment.

I’m sorry I didn’t address the major issue you spent lots of time explaining i.e. manufacturer name vs VIN. I’ll talk to a few people I know in the business both Japanese and Foreigners and in time I will get some feedback. I would like to pick a few domestic brains first before I reply to this issue.

Thanks so much for your insights JMS935!

bernie

[JMS935]

Hey Bernie...I don’t have a RUF. My entry into the turbo world came almost 20 years ago, and at the time I was going back and forth between a DP 935 turbo cab and a RUF BTR slant nose turbo cab, the DP won (I couldn’t afford both). I’ve added several since then, but no RUFs as of yet. Ironically, I recently came across some old (analog) photos of the RUF I didn’t buy, and really wished I could’ve afforded both. I had the ‘not being able to buy it’ remorse when viewing the photos.

If you’re correct, that Japan can do whatever they want on a title, and thus did so in your case, then your RUF might need to stay in Japan unless you can correct this Manufacturer/VIN error prior to selling your car. I’ll address the ‘what’s a real RUF’ debate in a moment, but I wanted to re-address what I’ve been trying to tell you about this VIN issue. Porsche was assigned the WP0 VIN prefix by Germany, so anything that starts with a WP0 was built and manufactured by Porsche. RUF was assigned the W09 by Germany (as well), they got this prefix because they manufacture less than 500 units annually. These aren’t opinions, I’m just stating fact. Any car RUF builds themselves from the ground up gets their own VIN tag with the prefix W09 on it, but that doesn’t mean that every W09 VIN car is a RUF. W09 is also used by every other German manufacturer that builds less than 500 units annually, so W09 isn’t solely used by RUF. You’ll see some DPs with the W09, and there could even be other manufacturers outside of the Porsche world entirely that use it as well simply because they have manufacturer status in Germany and build less than 500 cars annually. These VIN prefixes are assigned by the German government, and thus passed along to every other government around the world so that every DMV has the same database (hopefully) for issuing titles. This is where your car will have all sorts of problems, which have nothing to do with your debate of ‘what’s a real RUF’ and what isn’t, as DMVs don’t care at all about that debate, and I’d even wager most haven’t even heard of RUF before. Your title will need to be signed over to the next owner who then turns it in to their DMV for them to issue their own title, this is where the problem occurs. They can only issue a new title if the VIN and the manufacturer on the old title match with their database, which it won’t. It will show a Porsche VIN with RUF as the manufacturer. They can’t issue a title like this, not here in the US anyways, and I doubt anywhere else either. And that’s also assuming it gets through customs, which might not be so easy for the same reasons (same VIN database). I don’t know why Japan doesn’t adhere to the same VIN standards as every other country, you’d think that they should. My entire point with your car is that the original title that came with the car had to have Porsche as the manufacturer, not RUF. Japan wasn’t doing you any favors changing that to RUF when they issued you a new title, because no other government will recognize that VIN belonging to RUF, so they can’t issue a title on it. I don’t think your car can be successfully exported as is, which greatly limits your ability to sell it. I wouldn’t ever risk importing it myself, and assuming anyone else that knows enough about RUFs (your buyer’s pool) will understand this problem as well, I doubt they’d take this risk either. Which means your only market left is domestically within Japan. Unless you can correct the title.

Here is the ‘what’s a real RUF’ debate in a nutshell from my perspective. There are many different levels to a RUF, and as a result the higher up the RUF provenance totem pole, the more valuable the car is.

Here is how I see it...

1. Most valuable. RUF built from the ground up with a RUF VIN and a RUF title (since we obviously need to address both for your situation).
2. Next most valuable. Full RUF conversion done in house by RUF in Germany with all of the proper paperwork and documentation to support it.
3. Not as valuable as #2. Same full RUF conversion done by a RUF authorized shop with proper documentation to support it.
4. Not as valuable as #3. Same full RUF conversion done by others (like their own mechanic) with parts purchased from RUF with proper documentation to support it.
5. Not as valuable as #4. Anything below a full RUF conversion with just some RUF parts added to it probably falls into this category. There are probably many tiers within this as well, depending on the level of RUF bits added to the car.

To dumb it down even further for clarity’s sake, the most valuable RUF is a RUF built from the ground up. Any RUF that needed some level of deconstructing first before a RUF conversion could be performed, is probably worth less than that same equal car with the RUF VIN and title.

Your car sounds like it had a full RUF conversion, which puts it in tier 2 (if recalling properly that RUF did it). Just because the title says RUF for manufacturer doesn’t make it so, the VIN prefix indicates who built the car, which is Porsche in your case. Anyone collecting these is going to know that there’s an issue with your car. If we assume for a moment that titling it won’t be a problem (this is just for the value debate), I still doubt you’d ever get W09 money for your car because it wasn’t built from the ground up by RUF - WP0 on your title indicates as such. So this debate can be volleyed back and forth forever, but I think my different levels indicated above is a fair representation of how the market views and values these cars.

If you’re serious about finally letting go of your RUF, look into this title issue, and I mean outside of Japan since we already know they don’t have a problem with it. Or advertise it locally first to see if you can find a buyer first without having to deal with this title issue.

[Redgard]

I will only chime in because at one point owning a Btr or Ctr was the top of my most wanted list.
Then I started realizing how nuanced the whole Ruf thing was. I discovered ‘Ruf’ cars for sale that simply had the green speedos and wheels.. or maybe a shift knob and a sticker on the rear deck lid.
This completely deluted the brand in my eyes and erased most of its desirability... I could never be sure I bought a ‘real’ Ruf.. I suppose only the Vin would give you any certainty..
A friend of mine once had a VW bus with a Porsche engine.. was it a VW or a Porsche? . I even think it had Fuchs.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Hey Bernie...I don’t have a RUF. My entry into the turbo world came almost 20 years ago, and at the time I was going back and forth between a DP 935 turbo cab and a RUF BTR slant nose turbo cab, the DP won (I couldn’t afford both). I’ve added several since then, but no RUFs as of yet. Ironically, I recently came across some old (analog) photos of the RUF I didn’t buy, and really wished I could’ve afforded both. I had the ‘not being able to buy it’ remorse when viewing the photos.

If you’re correct, that Japan can do whatever they want on a title, and thus did so in your case, then your RUF might need to stay in Japan unless you can correct this Manufacturer/VIN error prior to selling your car. I’ll address the ‘what’s a real RUF’ debate in a moment, but I wanted to re-address what I’ve been trying to tell you about this VIN issue. Porsche was assigned the WP0 VIN prefix by Germany, so anything that starts with a WP0 was built and manufactured by Porsche. RUF was assigned the W09 by Germany (as well), they got this prefix because they manufacture less than 500 units annually. These aren’t opinions, I’m just stating fact. Any car RUF builds themselves from the ground up gets their own VIN tag with the prefix W09 on it, but that doesn’t mean that every W09 VIN car is a RUF. W09 is also used by every other German manufacturer that builds less than 500 units annually, so W09 isn’t solely used by RUF. You’ll see some DPs with the W09, and there could even be other manufacturers outside of the Porsche world entirely that use it as well simply because they have manufacturer status in Germany and build less than 500 cars annually. These VIN prefixes are assigned by the German government, and thus passed along to every other government around the world so that every DMV has the same database (hopefully) for issuing titles. This is where your car will have all sorts of problems, which have nothing to do with your debate of ‘what’s a real RUF’ and what isn’t, as DMVs don’t care at all about that debate, and I’d even wager most haven’t even heard of RUF before. Your title will need to be signed over to the next owner who then turns it in to their DMV for them to issue their own title, this is where the problem occurs. They can only issue a new title if the VIN and the manufacturer on the old title match with their database, which it won’t. It will show a Porsche VIN with RUF as the manufacturer. They can’t issue a title like this, not here in the US anyways, and I doubt anywhere else either. And that’s also assuming it gets through customs, which might not be so easy for the same reasons (same VIN database). I don’t know why Japan doesn’t adhere to the same VIN standards as every other country, you’d think that they should. My entire point with your car is that the original title that came with the car had to have Porsche as the manufacturer, not RUF. Japan wasn’t doing you any favors changing that to RUF when they issued you a new title, because no other government will recognize that VIN belonging to RUF, so they can’t issue a title on it. I don’t think your car can be successfully exported as is, which greatly limits your ability to sell it. I wouldn’t ever risk importing it myself, and assuming anyone else that knows enough about RUFs (your buyer’s pool) will understand this problem as well, I doubt they’d take this risk either. Which means your only market left is domestically within Japan. Unless you can correct the title.

Here is the ‘what’s a real RUF’ debate in a nutshell from my perspective. There are many different levels to a RUF, and as a result the higher up the RUF provenance totem pole, the more valuable the car is.

Here is how I see it...

1. Most valuable. RUF built from the ground up with a RUF VIN and a RUF title (since we obviously need to address both for your situation).
2. Next most valuable. Full RUF conversion done in house by RUF in Germany with all of the proper paperwork and documentation to support it.
3. Not as valuable as #2. Same full RUF conversion done by a RUF authorized shop with proper documentation to support it.
4. Not as valuable as #3. Same full RUF conversion done by others (like their own mechanic) with parts purchased from RUF with proper documentation to support it.
5. Not as valuable as #4. Anything below a full RUF conversion with just some RUF parts added to it probably falls into this category. There are probably many tiers within this as well, depending on the level of RUF bits added to the car.

To dumb it down even further for clarity’s sake, the most valuable RUF is a RUF built from the ground up. Any RUF that needed some level of deconstructing first before a RUF conversion could be performed, is probably worth less than that same equal car with the RUF VIN and title.

Your car sounds like it had a full RUF conversion, which puts it in tier 2 (if recalling properly that RUF did it). Just because the title says RUF for manufacturer doesn’t make it so, the VIN prefix indicates who built the car, which is Porsche in your case. Anyone collecting these is going to know that there’s an issue with your car. If we assume for a moment that titling it won’t be a problem (this is just for the value debate), I still doubt you’d ever get W09 money for your car because it wasn’t built from the ground up by RUF - WP0 on your title indicates as such. So this debate can be volleyed back and forth forever, but I think my different levels indicated above is a fair representation of how the market views and values these cars.

If you’re serious about finally letting go of your RUF, look into this title issue, and I mean outside of Japan since we already know they don’t have a problem with it. Or advertise it locally first to see if you can find a buyer first without having to deal with this title issue.

Thank you JMS935 for the very detailed and exquisite analysis on what the categories of real RUFs are and their value. I couldn’t agree more with your analysis. I feel guilty for keeping you up all night or day typing this out. Much appreciated for your fine advice and experience/expertise.

I agree that my car, in whatever state it was, still is in the category 2, of course now minus the original motor. The manufacturer vs VIN no, I do agree may be a problem if exported. As said, I will investigate here and get some feedback First I’ll call the Ishida brothers and see what they have to say, say how many instances have they seen of this over the years. They didn’t import this car back in 94, but let’s just see what they have to say. They have already seen my documents and didn’t mention anything about that. I’ll do that but need a little more time. I’m quite busy all week long.

One word you mentioned that caught my attention was deconstruct, regarding the white tubs (were NOT?) and the full engine conversion woP (that were?). I was wondering about that if you meant the white tubs didn’t undergo any deconstruction? For instance, my particular car had the front valence cut out (re-fitted) for the RUF front oil cooler. I’m assuming all the wo9s did too; moreover, my car has the tower bar by RUF which (well that is construction) welded in per the mounts. On my particular car, one can’t even fit a spare tire in the slot due to this front valence cut out. In the front small corner that was left they built an aluminum small custom fitted washer tank. All deconstruction of original Porsche body, but I’m assuming RUF did the same on their wo9 white bodies?

Just a thought that has no bearing or argument with vin vs manufacture name, and I am not arguing this whatsoever, but just to say, cars over 25 years old come in (to) the US like Flynn. Talking with a customs official 20 years ago, he said all you need is a receipt, not even a title. I don’t know about now, and this is not even a valid point to this discussion. As you say, it’s better sold in Japan if there are any issues with export.

By the way, the guy who I was considering buying the BTR III motor from described his car, the car it is in as a bista Porsche, a Porsche with RUF parts, not a real RUF.

bernie

[crb07]

My Ruf tribute. Purchased an 86 930 engine. About six months later I purchased the roller 930 and gearbox. Previous owner was going to build a race car and gave up on the project. Front fenders and bumpers were missing as well as wheels. I had collected original Ruf parts including; intercooler, wheels, guages, front valance, oil cooler, steering wheel, wind splits, and muffler. Engine is twin plug 3.4. Muffler is not on the car as I prefer the straight pipe. About 52k original miles. Closest I will ever come to owning a Ruf.

[911heaven]

Sure looks like a sweet car Chris! I'll trade you for mine..

bernie

[ficke]

Great information in this thread, thanks especially to JMS935.

[JMS935]

Bernie, my deconstruct comment was just trying to dumb it down to the very basics...

If it’s an original RUF, meaning a W09 VIN on a RUF title, then they’re building that car from the ground up. Any other Porsche they work on, the WP0 cars, all show up to RUF as a complete car, so anything they do to it needs some level of deconstruction first. Just trying to dumb it down for clarity’s sake, that’s all.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by ficke

Great information in this thread, thanks especially to JMS935.

Bernie and I sure did do a good job of hijacking a 3 year old thread and not mentioning anything about the CTR once, what the thread was intended for.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Bernie and I sure did do a good job of hijacking a 3 year old thread and not mentioning anything about the CTR once, what the thread was intended for.

Well JMS935, I don’t think WE exactly high jacked it. Maybe I did when I posted a quote on the R50-50 ratios that were posted by someone in the know. I don’t know for sure if that person was really in the know, but it was the first time I had heard that and that was on this 6 speed BTR, BTRIII, CTR etc.

Either way, no high jacking really I think. The original thread was about a car value/for sale and guys on this forum knocking his price and his vintage. Turns out the car sold a couple of years later for more than he was asking originally right. So basically the CTR sale at a good price was the end I thought. It was SOLD anyway, so not much conjecture to come on that particular car after the event. That’s not to say we can’t go on talking about CTR or RUF I suppose.

I communicated with Matt Monson 3-4 years ago about my gearbox, even posted for value on this forum. Matt said maybe 18-22K THEN I think, but he said any smart buyer will want to know the ratios. Since then, without having a way to find those ratios and without wanting to pull down a good gearbox to check without experience I’ve been trying to find those ratios. Late last year I began looking on the net, but all I found was some info that during the BTR era, customers were allowed some options on tranny ratios. Therefore, I cannot be sure that what this person said verifies standard ratios, or if there might be other optional ratios on a given RUF 6 speed R50-50.

Indeed, if I end up giving up on the project, parting it out for instance, this component will be the one that may go first, so I would really love to know if those ratios quoted on this thread are correct. Would you or anyone here know that? Moreover, would there be guys who would like such a gearbox for their bista Porsche, or a spare for a real RUF, be it BTR or CTR? Again, my gearbox only had done an easy 8000km. I can tell that by looking at the original brake pads and rotors. Odometer was 8k km. I still have the immaculate leather six speed (Ruf) shift knob.

Next time I’m at the Ishida bros. I may be able to snap some pix of their pristine looking yellow bird CTR. Last time there I had little time do to business meeting, but I saw it, touched it etc. I don’t think they would mind if I snapped a few pix next time if I ask. Would you like to see those if I can? You’ve seen Yellowbird pix before I’m sure, but not one in Japan.

I wanted to ask Matt Monson about those posted ratios too. If you’re listening, please let me know your gear head honest opinion about them if you have time. Thanks a million.

bernie

[ficke]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Bernie and I sure did do a good job of hijacking a 3 year old thread and not mentioning anything about the CTR once, what the thread was intended for.

Yes, but it has been a good hijack with real information put out.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Well JMS935, I don’t think WE exactly high jacked it. Maybe I did when I posted a quote on the R50-50 ratios that were posted by someone in the know. I don’t know for sure if that person was really in the know, but it was the first time I had heard that and that was on this 6 speed BTR, BTRIII, CTR etc.

Either way, no high jacking really I think. The original thread was about a car value/for sale and guys on this forum knocking his price and his vintage. Turns out the car sold a couple of years later for more than he was asking originally right. So basically the CTR sale at a good price was the end I thought. It was SOLD anyway, so not much conjecture to come on that particular car after the event. That’s not to say we can’t go on talking about CTR or RUF I suppose.

I communicated with Matt Monson 3-4 years ago about my gearbox, even posted for value on this forum. Matt said maybe 18-22K THEN I think, but he said any smart buyer will want to know the ratios. Since then, without having a way to find those ratios and without wanting to pull down a good gearbox to check without experience I’ve been trying to find those ratios. Late last year I began looking on the net, but all I found was some info that during the BTR era, customers were allowed some options on tranny ratios. Therefore, I cannot be sure that what this person said verifies standard ratios, or if there might be other optional ratios on a given RUF 6 speed R50-50.

Indeed, if I end up giving up on the project, parting it out for instance, this component will be the one that may go first, so I would really love to know if those ratios quoted on this thread are correct. Would you or anyone here know that? Moreover, would there be guys who would like such a gearbox for their bista Porsche, or a spare for a real RUF, be it BTR or CTR?

bernie

I double checked my RUF literature and price lists, but there’s nothing defining any gear box ratios. It does indicate however, that there are two different models of the 6 speed gearbox R50/50 12, there’s a 1988 model and a 1989 model. Does yours have a year on it? Assuming these are slightly different, you might need to know that to answer your question. Can’t you get that technical info from RUF? If not, maybe try looking for period magazine articles on RUFs, they may have those specs in the article, and you can pass the magazine along to any buyer as confirmation (assuming it’s accurate).

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

I double checked my RUF literature and price lists, but there’s nothing defining any gear box ratios. It does indicate however, that there are two different models of the 6 speed gearbox R50/50 12, there’s a 1988 model and a 1989 model. Does yours have a year on it? Assuming these are slightly different, you might need to know that to answer your question. Can’t you get that technical info from RUF? If not, maybe try looking for period magazine articles on RUFs, they may have those specs in the article, and you can pass the magazine along to any buyer as confirmation (assuming it’s accurate).

Mine has no markings as per year, and if there were, I'd have seen them by now. The original poster on this thread said from 89, BTR, BTRIII, CTR. I'm thinking even 89 Porsche woP bodies could take a Ruf 6 speed, not 88s by configuration on 930 woP chassies. My car is 89 vin. My BTRIII motronic ECU is dated 1991. MP 1.2 Bosch. My transmission anyway only bears the RUF badge reading R 50-50 plus part no 0081. I've never heard of, as you mentioned R 50-50 12.

I'll post a couple pix, ECU and Trans RUF badge just for reference. By the way, that badge was perfectly pristine, until 20 years ago when then I hired a Kiwi engineer to inspect the inners. When he had it up on the work bench he scratched up the badge. Back then I nearly lost my relationship with him. I had to apologize for telling him what I said then -- you f- cking c-nt! Actually, he was just an honest engineer and didn't know what he'd done. His reply was -- you can go and get f-cked!

Today, we are close friends and close neighbors in the mountains just by coincidence, life long friends now I believe!

bernie

[Matt Monson]

The irony here is Bernie used to get so bent at the slightest high jacking of shyte.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

The irony here is Bernie used to get so bent at the slightest high jacking of shyte.

True, but wasn’t that more in regards to outright trolling? This was just a slight deviation from the CTR to the BTR, and we also discussed values related to conversions. So I think we might’ve provided some decent stuff...who knows.

Bernie, I couldn’t tell you what the 12 means, I was just quoting it verbatim from the price list. So if you gave that mechanic such a verbal lashing and now you’re best buds, I wonder if that means there’s still hope for you and amg463 yet.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by JMS935

True, but wasn’t that more in regards to outright trolling? This was just a slight deviation from the CTR to the BTR, and we also discussed values related to conversions. So I think we might’ve provided some decent stuff...who knows.

Bernie, I couldn’t tell you what the 12 means, I was just quoting it verbatim from the price list. So if you gave that mechanic such a verbal lashing and now you’re best buds, I wonder if that means there’s still hope for you and amg463 yet.

Oh no, I mean the slightest variance. Ronny and I would be exchanging pleasantries and if it was in Bernie's thread he was not happy with us.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

The irony here is Bernie used to get so bent at the slightest high jacking of shyte.

This is true Matt, I used to be a little touchy, perhaps much more than now. I think my past experience on three different forums contributed to that. As a new guy, or someone with a low post count, one can get pushed around a bit. Even for being in Japan one can be singled out. I always push back too, and defend myself against all odds. That's just who I am. Therefore I guess, being on the defensive against such became a pattern for survival or legitimacy. This is the only forum I'm on. Early S I quit 2 years ago after only a month or so from joining.. GT-R Register, (UK) I quit in 2005?


bernie

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by JMS935

True, but wasn’t that more in regards to outright trolling? This was just a slight deviation from the CTR to the BTR, and we also discussed values related to conversions. So I think we might’ve provided some decent stuff...who knows.

Bernie, I couldn’t tell you what the 12 means, I was just quoting it verbatim from the price list. So if you gave that mechanic such a verbal lashing and now you’re best buds, I wonder if that means there’s still hope for you and amg463 yet.

Oh Yeah! There is always hope. If AMG463 would like to make amends, I am keen. We could mutually apologize for things we've said, mutually forgive. I am willing right now if he would accommodate the gesture on my part. As I said to Matt, I don't like fighting or war. I'm a peaceful person. Remember the first two attributes of God? Love and mercy. If he would be interested, I'll get him back off the ignore list.
bernie