Starter no crankie..CVJ related?

[mark houghton]

The title was to grab your attention, has nothing to do with CV joints as you know I just replaced.

Have done a couple drives since adjusting valves, new CVJ, new plugs...all has been cool until I attempted to leave the local grocery store today. She would not crank over...no solenoid clicking noise, nothing other than fuel pumps running etc. Battery fully charged.

Called AAA and they had a tow on the way. Went back in to the store to buy a charge adapter since my phone was almost dead, came back to the car and she lit right up. F--- me. No fuses, no relays associated with the starter circuit, believe me I checked and have since traced the wiring diagrams.

Common problems: battery connections (they are clean and tight), ground straps (well maybe), ignition switch, connections at the starter, the solenoid itself. Perhaps associated with my remote door locks/alarm system, since I did lock the car earlier but that's maybe a stretch.

I hate it when freaking Murphy raises his ugly head. Faults unknown tend to put fear into the driving experience.

[Alan L]

So I spent a week last yr under my SC dealing with a similar problem. In the end traced every connector for the Y wire circuit etc. Put a new starter in, still problems. Just no start.
Mine was a starter problem. Then the new starter wouldn't work - in the car. OK on the bench. It required more solenoid power than my circuit was prepared to give.
So a couple of things - jump the two terminals on the solenoid - see if it fires - make sure you are out of gear and not going to get run over etc.
Then you can go back to your T14 plug. The solenoid Y wire goes thru there. First check when you turn the key you get 12 V supply there. That takes one side out of the equation. Then what I did was hook a spare 12 V battery to the other side of the plug - engine harness side. That fires (or should) the solenoid.
You should get a clue by the time you have been thru there. But one issue is the solenoid terminals (inside) get burnt out and can't take the big load. I have dismantled them before and cleaned them, and that is a fix.
Check your ground points at the battery, and the trans. And the 12v+.
Somehting is probably failing under load - from the battery, or in the solenoid.
Alan

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

So I spent a week last yr under my SC dealing with a similar problem. In the end traced every connector for the Y wire circuit etc. Put a new starter in, still problems. Just no start.
Mine was a starter problem. Then the new starter wouldn't work - in the car. OK on the bench. It required more solenoid power than my circuit was prepared to give.
So a couple of things - jump the two terminals on the solenoid - see if it fires - make sure you are out of gear and not going to get run over etc.
Then you can go back to your T14 plug. The solenoid Y wire goes thru there. First check when you turn the key you get 12 V supply there. That takes one side out of the equation. Then what I did was hook a spare 12 V battery to the other side of the plug - engine harness side. That fires (or should) the solenoid.
You should get a clue by the time you have been thru there. But one issue is the solenoid terminals (inside) get burnt out and can't take the big load. I have dismantled them before and cleaned them, and that is a fix.
Check your ground points at the battery, and the trans. And the 12v+.
Somehting is probably failing under load - from the battery, or in the solenoid.
Alan

Great pointers, thanks. Not sure what the T14 plug is or where. I have in the past rebuilt starter solenoids where the copper connections inside were worn to where they wouldn't actuate the starter motor when the solenoid pulls as it should, i.e., the solenoid clicks/pulls/energizes as it should but the contacts to the starter motor were toast and not transferring power.

Seems I'll be jacking her up again and crawling beneath. Weird when things stop working then remedie themselves...aways in the back of your mind, will it start back up?

[Alan L]

You need to get under there again to check across the solenoid contacts - jump them with a bit of stout wire. If they continually engage, then the solenoid is OK, it is likely not energising . That takes you back to the Y wire circuit again. Another place that can cause problems is the contact in the ign sw. That feeds the Y wire circuit. I think that is where my SC issue lay. A new starter would fire on the bench - with jumper leads etc, but intermittent in the car - turn key, nothing. Next time, working. I swapped starters out multiple times (the 930 has it's uses) over the week. I eventually wired a relay in to that circuit - to take the solenoid load off the ign sw. There is a Y wire 2-1 junction in the frunk - behind the steering wheel basically. I tapped into there for the relay. Similar to the relay I put on my M/C brake light switches.
The T14 plug is on the regulator panel in the engine bay.
Edit - if you open that plug and put 12 V to the solenoid side of that junction and get consistent engagement, then you are likely looking at the ign sw contacts.
Good luck
Alan

[Alan L]

Your 911 wiring diag will tell you which pin/socket # the Y wire is (they are numbered on the T 14 plug). My SC has the same wiring config for the 930 T14. I can get the # in a few hrs if you don't have it to hand.
Alan

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

Your 911 wiring diag will tell you which pin/socket # the Y wire is (they are numbered on the T 14 plug). My SC has the same wiring config for the 930 T14. I can get the # in a few hrs if you don't have it to hand.
Alan

Will check my wiring diagram, just not sure where the T14 is located is all.

[Alan L]

#1 terminal on the plug. Has numbering. The plug is the oblong brown thing on the mounting plate that holds the yellow relay. That plug connects the engine wiring to the chassis wiring. The chassis wiring stays with the half of the plug that is still mounted. That corresponding (chassis) #1 terminal takes you back to your ign sw. So, assuming you find adequate power jumping the solenoid terminals, I would split that plug and put 12V thru #1 terminal on the engine side of the plug - the bit in your hand.
That will tell you if you have a solenoid issue.
Alan

[Alan L]

You could save your cranky knees and back, a trip underneath, by testing the T14 first. If it gives you regular engagement as you put 12V to #1, you will be looking upstream of that junction and the problem is not underneath the car.
Alan
Edit - you can leave the key Off if you jump the solenoid terminals (the battery cable to the solenoid is hot - as you will know). And similar for the #1 terminal/12V to solenoid test. Youbare simulating the key going in to Start position. So you don't need the key on. Don't need the engine firing up each time.

[Bucketlist]

Thinking way back, long before Porsche life, I would see this happen now and then. The starter would land on a dead spot and not turn over. Sometimes you could rock it in gear to get off that spot and it would start fine for a while. Usually had to pull the starter apart to find it, rebuild or replace.
Good luck!

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Bucketlist

Thinking way back, long before Porsche life, I would see this happen now and then. The starter would land on a dead spot and not turn over. Sometimes you could rock it in gear to get off that spot and it would start fine for a while. Usually had to pull the starter apart to find it, rebuild or replace.
Good luck!

I know what you're talking about, but in that instance you would at least hear the solenoid clicking even if the starter motor wouldn't run. For me, no solenoid action happening....so no power getting to it.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

You could save your cranky knees and back, a trip underneath, by testing the T14 first. If it gives you regular engagement as you put 12V to #1, you will be looking upstream of that junction and the problem is not underneath the car.
Alan
Edit - you can leave the key Off if you jump the solenoid terminals (the battery cable to the solenoid is hot - as you will know). And similar for the #1 terminal/12V to solenoid test. Youbare simulating the key going in to Start position. So you don't need the key on. Don't need the engine firing up each time.

Thanks for all the detail Alan. Helps a bunch. I'll start at Y14. May be just a poor connection there, since I most likely pushed and pulled that wire bundle when removing the recirc manifold and to gain better access to the dizzy cap where that bundle crouds it.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by mark houghton

Thanks for all the detail Alan. Helps a bunch. I'll start at Y14. May be just a poor connection there, since I most likely pushed and pulled that wire bundle when removing the recirc manifold and to gain better access to the dizzy cap where that bundle crouds it.

Found T15 on my diagram for 1986 year. Terminal #1 as you said. Will start looking there.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by mark houghton

For me, no solenoid action happening....so no power getting to it.

Check trans ground strap and peer suspiciously at the yellow wire in the 14-pin plug for poor connectivity or low voltage/voltage drop, work backwards as indicated by results.

It does take a fair amount of ommph across the solenoid terminals to get it to click - let alone throw out energetically enough to engage the ring gear and activate the starter. So you really can't go by "multimeter buzzes" for continuity, or even a low-wattage test bulb - simply not enough current involved. To test the solenoid itself, you could jump the permanent hot starter feed to the solenoid terminal, as Alan suggests. Feeding 12V directly into the yellow wire at the 14-pin connector is also good to eliminate/test.

And yes, the terminal post inside the ignition switch that supplies power to the yellow wire when the key is turned to 'Start' can fail (I presume internal arcing degrades it) - and so (a) make contact while also (b) not providing enough current.

A new ignition switch (especially one you previously verified works) can be very useful for diagnosing - plug the harness into the firewall plug to eliminate the electrical switch. Although, sometimes, just unplugging and re-making the old connection can make it all magically work again. Often just until the next time, LOL.

Good luck. It's hard to know if/when you fixed an intermittent fault, as best you can say is "it hasn't happened since the last time". Mine hasn't recurred in a very long time, beginning to feel confident about it...

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by spuggy

Check trans ground strap and peer suspiciously at the yellow wire in the 14-pin plug for poor connectivity or low voltage/voltage drop, work backwards as indicated by results.

It does take a fair amount of ommph across the solenoid terminals to get it to click - let alone throw out energetically enough to engage the ring gear and activate the starter. So you really can't go by "multimeter buzzes" for continuity, or even a low-wattage test bulb - simply not enough current involved. To test the solenoid itself, you could jump the permanent hot starter feed to the solenoid terminal, as Alan suggests. Feeding 12V directly into the yellow wire at the 14-pin connector is also good to eliminate/test.

And yes, the terminal post inside the ignition switch that supplies power to the yellow wire when the key is turned to 'Start' can fail (I presume internal arcing degrades it) - and so (a) make contact while also (b) not providing enough current.

A new ignition switch (especially one you previously verified works) can be very useful for diagnosing - plug the harness into the firewall plug to eliminate the electrical switch. Although, sometimes, just unplugging and re-making the old connection can make it all magically work again. Often just until the next time, LOL.

Good luck. It's hard to know if/when you fixed an intermittent fault, as best you can say is "it hasn't happened since the last time". Mine hasn't recurred in a very long time, beginning to feel confident about it...

Love it Spuggy! "Hasn't happened since the last time". Trust has to be earned.

[mark houghton]

First, particular thanks to Alan and Spuggy for their direction.

Of course this morning, she fired right up. But of course. Regardless, I next pulled the T15 connector and hosed it down with contact cleaner. Looked clean but one never knows.

Then proceeded to put 12vdc to plug terminal #1 (female) using a power supply I have on hand that's rated for 10 amps. Solenoid clicked, so at this point I'm ruling out the solenoid which would lead one to presume some intermittent power loss upstream, like from the ignition switch.

Now the MacGyver in me kicks in. Should this strand me again I need an alternate way to energize the solenoid, i.e. a jumper of sorts. Proposing tapping into the yellow wire from terminal #1 and jumping it to a power source. Looking at the diagram, I think I could pull power from terminal #10 which comes from the rear fuel pump relay and feeds the WUR. Turn the ignition key on, jump those two as needed and she should start right up.

Thoughts? What the heck, another jumper wire on hand to go along with my yellow relay jumper in the glove box.

[Alan L]

So the solenoid clicked - but did not engage your starter. It should have - the solenoid is hot wired to your battery. You have found your problem.
That was easy - eh?
The only other thing to check now is to jump across the solenoid terminals - to make sure the starter will engage when the solenoid (faulty) is taken out of the equation. This just checks the capability of the starter motor itself. Assuming it does fire, the iissue is in the solenoid contacts.
Those T14 pins do close up after a while - you will see they are slotted. You can prise the slots open slightly with something like a razor blade. To ensure you have good contacts at that point. But your problem is in the solenoid end.
Alan

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

So the solenoid clicked - but did not engage your starter. It should have - the solenoid (you meant the starter) is hot wired to your battery. You have found your problem.
That was easy - eh?
The only other thing to check now is to jump across the solenoid terminals - to make sure the starter will engage when the solenoid (faulty) is taken out of the equation. This just checks the capability of the starter motor itself. Assuming it does fire, the iissue is in the solenoid contacts.
Those T14 pins do close up after a while - you will see they are slotted. You can prise the slots open slightly with something like a razor blade. To ensure you have good contacts at that point. But your problem is in the solenoid end.
Alan

Wellll....maybe. True the starter should have turned over, but I'm not sure that my power supply had enough amps to move the solenoid far enough to engage the starter contacts, which may explain the click but no starter action (it was pretty weak sounding click, more like a standard relay and not the hard solid sound it should make).

I need to snag a battery somewhere and repeat the test. Car starts up just fine otherwise so I'm not convinced the solenoid is at fault. Remember when this first happened the solenoid did not click at all, pointing to loss of 12vdc source to it. Had it clicked yesterday then I would suspect the internal starter motor contacts within the solenoid are worn, or the starter itself.

Still some more dicking around to do. Will keep you posted

UPDATE UPDATE, etc
Hooked up a car battery to the #1 test terminal...shazaam, the starter turns. So as suspected my whimpy power supply didn't have enough oomph to fully energize the solenoid.
Back to looking upstream but still considering the MacGyver hack I mentioned earlier for emergency roadside starting.

[Alan L]

"So the solenoid clicked - but did not engage your starter. It should have - the solenoid (you meant the starter) is hot wired to your battery."

No, ... the solenoid is hot wired to your battery. There is no direct wiring to the starter motor. It goes thru the solenoid. Then the contact shunt in the solenoid transfers that hot link to the starter.
It is possible, like you say, that it is sticky, or didn't have enough grunt to make it work. But I am suspecting bad contacts in the solenoid.
Looks like you have a T15 connector. They must have added another pin. Maybe TPS or something else I don't have.
Alan
Edit - That 'click' may have been your CSV? But if things are working well underneath, you should be able to start the car via that #1 terminal. If you can't , you need to find why.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by Alan L

"So the solenoid clicked - but did not engage your starter. It should have - the solenoid (you meant the starter) is hot wired to your battery."

No, ... the solenoid is hot wired to your battery. There is no direct wiring to the starter motor. It goes thru the solenoid. Then the contact shunt in the solenoid transfers that hot link to the starter.
It is possible, like you say, that it is sticky, or didn't have enough grunt to make it work. But I am suspecting bad contacts in the solenoid.
Looks like you have a T15 connector. They must have added another pin. Maybe TPS or something else I don't have.
Alan
Edit - That 'click' may have been your CSV? But if things are working well underneath, you should be able to start the car via that #1 terminal. If you can't , you need to find why.

See my update from minutes ago: sorry this is dragging on so.

UPDATE UPDATE, etc
Hooked up a car battery to the #1 test terminal...shazaam, the starter turns. So as suspected my whimpy power supply didn't have enough oomph to fully energize the solenoid.
Back to looking upstream but still considering the MacGyver hack I mentioned earlier for emergency roadside starting.

[Alan L]

So now you have a simple test to check that part of the system.
Like said before - I spent a week under my SC last yr - completely bamboozled by a new starter motor throwing me a curve ball. When I finally thought it was sorted, I took the car to town. Yippee - after days of struggling with it. And of course it failed to start to get me home. I at least had the foresight to take a short length of moderately heavy cable. I had to jump across the solenoid terminals to fire it up. I had to jack the side up first to get enough clearance.
I would suggest you do a few pin #1 tests and see if you can get it to fail. Next time it fails, it would be worth doing that test. If it passes that test every time, then it would likely be the ign sw contacts. Can be circumvented with a relay.
It may well be you can fire the car up via pin #1. No need to crawl under. Not sure I tried that. The other wires feed CSV, brake lights etc, so may not be needed for a running engine.
Alan