Direct oil injection

Elab · Elab's Garage

Any one installed the DOI kit from Tuners Motorsports?

mikefocke · 06-25-2013, 03:44 PM

Any one know how many have been installed, if any have run in real world (read that as hot and cold and in street conditions) and how long they have been tested?

How complex the install is? If DIYers will be supported? How?

What the warranty is?

It is the testing and support issues I usually question.

Everyone who tried to introduce an IMS fix has stumbled over support.

speter20 · 06-30-2013, 08:33 PM

Might be kind of early but very good question. Has anyone tried this fix yet? Mike....??

mikefocke · 07-01-2013, 06:11 AM

This idea was first floated years ago. AFAIK, it was first tried before the LN bearing and IMS bearing removal process was offered. But there were "concerns" that led to the approach that LN/Flat6 took in offering a ceramic bearing.

Then about a year ago, a poster on one of the forums tried it but he has since gone silent.

As for the one recently offered, all I can find out is that it is fairly recent and they have installed a few but how many, exactly how long ago and under what conditions they have been tested is not public that I've seen.

I'd be interested in the relative success of adding DOI to an existing bearing versus using a new bearing but that takes hundreds of samples before you have any real basis for a judgement and this hasn't been in enough cars yet to let us know much about their success in solving the "concerns".

Stiletto Pat · 07-01-2013, 08:49 PM

Mike,

I think that Pedro is introducing such a system. I saw a demo of it at the Blue Ridge Boxster Summit Tech program. It looks pretty impressive, but as in everything else, time will tell.

Pat

speter20 · 07-02-2013, 09:45 AM

Friend of mine got a email on this either today or yesterday saying its up for sale now. From what I saw (couple months back) it looks similar to the fix a guy name felix on this forum tested. Sounds like a direct approach to the problem, lubrication. What are your concerns Mike? Clean oil to the bearing sounds like a simple and effective fix. Especially for the 987 cars. Almost sounds like it might be cheaper than a bearing replacement but not sure. Does anyone know the cost?

thom4782 · thom4782's Garage

IIRC, it's $799 for the parts.

There are two concerns. If the bearing seal isn't removed, lubrication may still be inadequate. If the bearing is already worn and not replaced, DOI may only extend its life.

Stiletto Pat · 07-04-2013, 03:32 PM

Regarding Pedro's new solution, in the demo that I saw, the seal is removed and the bearing inspected prior to the installation of the oil injection process. There were a couple of engineer buddies of mine in attendance, and both of them thought it was a very good solution.

Pat

mikefocke · 07-04-2013, 05:26 PM

My concerns:

Testing in real life. Sometimes what sounds good in theory turns out to be not so good when subjected to the variety of conditions that we subject our cars to. Give us a couple of dozen cars and a couple of years and then we'll know more.

The source of the oil. Is this the optimum place for the oil to be taken from and does it affect the area that the oil was originally intended to lubricate. Quantification please.

The filtration of the oil. You are taking oil from an area where it isn't just filtered and dumping any debris at all into the bearing can cause problems.

That others tried the same solution 4+ years ago and detected problems and went in other directions.

The installation and support which depends on a network of experienced, trained installers...or does it.

That they suggest it is OK to reuse a bearing that already has an unknown number of revolutions on it and which is known to not be of the best quality. Given the labor cost, why not put in a better bearing?

That they don't include in the kit strengthened/improved parts but reuse or use ones that other kit makes say fail.

I didn't attend BRBS so I don't know how those concerns would be answered.

Time will tell.

JFP in PA · 07-04-2013, 07:05 PM

Mike is spot on; if you pull oil from the wrong place, something besides the IMS may not be properly lubricated due to the oil volume diverted to the IMS. Both the quantity and the quality of the oil going into the IMS bearing is critical; if just a little bit of debris gets into the bearing and an otherwise good bearing becomes scrap metal very quickly. So the system has to be well thought out, properly engineered, and thoroughly tested.

thom4782 · thom4782's Garage

Does anyone know if the DOI kit takes oil from the same spot as the IMS Solution?

JFP in PA · 07-05-2013, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom4782

Does anyone know if the DOI kit takes oil from the same spot as the IMS Solution?

It does not. The IMS Solution takes filtered oil off the main oil gallery that feeds the entire engine coming out of the filter, the DOI from what I have seen taps into a cylinder head passage that feeds the valve train.

thom4782 · thom4782's Garage

Thanks JFP ---

Wouldn't it be nice it the LN Engineering folks offered a 3rd option - one that combines its LN Retrofit bearing with the oil feed components from its IMS Solution. Of course this would mean developing oil feed capable flanges for the dual row and large bearing cars.

mikefocke · 07-06-2013, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiletto Pat

Regarding Pedro's new solution, in the demo that I saw, the seal is removed and the bearing inspected prior to the installation of the oil injection process. There were a couple of engineer buddies of mine in attendance, and both of them thought it was a very good solution.

Pat

Of course you didn't get to compare other approaches at BRBS because other vendors/developers weren't invited and haven't been.

And what were the expertise of the engineers in attendance? Any experts in the internal oiling systems of a flat-6 from Porsche? For example, what did they know about the specific volume/pressure characteristics of the areas where the oil was taken from to feed the bearing?

When I worked, I learned that there are engineers and there are people with specific experience and I wanted input from both. I sometimes found the experienced had already tried the way the engineers theorized was the right way ... and it wasn't. But if I could actually get them talking to each other...

speter20 · 07-07-2013, 11:47 AM

Mike I appreciate your consistency with these new solutions that come to market for this problem. In this case, I like the skeptics. From my understanding, this sytem was tested on the track, a venue where new parts has always been tested first. You do have a good point as far as everyday testing which I haven't heard from the vendor. Good point on the oil pick up since all I heard was it was using FILTERED oil which sounded like a must to me. So the issues that you and JFP raise, wouldn't that show up as a problem on the track? Robbing oil from area that the engine can't compensate for, wouldn't that show up on the track?

And at 799.00 if your bearing does show some signs of wear, at that point your cheapest option is to install the pelican fix along with the DOI and now that brings you closer to the price of the solution?? My head is spinning right now. Appreciate your feedback on this thread. Its already been informative to me.

JFP in PA · 07-07-2013, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speter20

So the issues that you and JFP raise, wouldn't that show up as a problem on the track? Robbing oil from area that the engine can't compensate for, wouldn't that show up on the track?

It would also show up on the street; stealing oil volume and pressure from another part of the engine, and in particular dirty oil, is not a good idea on any engine, much less one that already is known for having lubrication issues from the area you are taking it from........

mikefocke · 07-08-2013, 11:01 AM

There is a difference between going say hundreds of miles on a track in a day and the day-in day-out starting. stopping and varying conditions your car probably experiences over years of driving. That is why I ask about real world testing.

Let me pose a possible scenario that could explain why I want testing that replicates how I'd drive my car. You start the car, the oil pump pressurizes the system but, because you are taking oil from one of the higher points in the engine, it takes longer for the lubrication to reach where Porsche originally designed it to go and you need lube there because the car has sat and the oil has dripped away from the parts over time before you hit the starter. And the oil would flow at a slightly different rate in the winter when everything is cold. So over hundreds of starts and stops, you might get very different results than if you covered even the same miles with only a few starts. The problem might not show up in the IMS but in the area where you were taking the oil from.

I'm not saying that exact scenario will happen, just that it is representative of the problems that could be caused and why I'd want what I call real world and quantity testing before I'd go with the DOI.

Of the approaches that are available, only the LN ceramic has the multi-years on thousands of engines real world experience at this point. Other approaches may turn out to be better but we just don't have enough data yet IMHO to have the same degree of confidence in them. If only all of these had been available 6 years or so ago when the cars were worth some significant money and more people felt like these fixes would be a worthwhile investment.

speter20 · 07-08-2013, 05:50 PM

Very good point guys. Thought provoking indeed. Had to go to the website and read a little. They make a good case for ther product on there website and even provide a phone number for questions. Wish they could answer questions on this forum.

Until then, what do you make of this? "At 4,000 RPM (with engine at normal operating temperature), 1.4L (1400cc) per minute of oil is transferred to the IMS bearing." How much oil is that in terms of oil lost to the critical components of the valvetrain? I mean, 1.4l, how bad is this JFP? To make this a non factor, do I now need a deem sump to offset?

Site post some other facts about the oil being cooled by the oil cooler which also sounds like a plus. But my question is on the 1.4l.

mikefocke · 07-09-2013, 02:49 PM

Ask them if they have measured the PSI at the unmolested "head" and the one they are taking the oil from (after their install). Engineers would want to know that. That sounds like a gosh awfully large amount of oil to be taking from a critical lube location.

JFP in PA · 07-09-2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speter20

Very good point guys. Thought provoking indeed. Had to go to the website and read a little. They make a good case for ther product on there website and even provide a phone number for questions. Wish they could answer questions on this forum.

Until then, what do you make of this? "At 4,000 RPM (with engine at normal operating temperature), 1.4L (1400cc) per minute of oil is transferred to the IMS bearing." How much oil is that in terms of oil lost to the critical components of the valvetrain? I mean, 1.4l, how bad is this JFP? To make this a non factor, do I now need a deem sump to offset?

Site post some other facts about the oil being cooled by the oil cooler which also sounds like a plus. But my question is on the 1.4l.

What you need to do is engineer the system; figure out how much oil is actually needed to properly lubricate and cool the bearing, and then design a system that provides enough clean oil and a safety margin without starving something else. Just throwing 15% of the engine's capacity at one bearing is not the answer, and can easily create new problems.