Harley Livewire

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by KevinTodd

Yay. Another "Bash Harley" thread from the know-it-all, yet most-of-you-don't-even-own-a-Porsche crowd. LOL.

"...most of you..." ???

Do you know anything about what you are talking about? And what about folks like me that have had seven Porsches over time, while maybe in between ownership? (I do have a Porsche at this time, BTW.)

I think that was an attempt to validate your position although you don't mention whether you have a HD or not.

I don't care for bashing threads either but why harpoon the whole membership here to accomplish your agenda?

[KevinTodd]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

If you don’t like the company, you can always leave.
Harley is dead, it just forgot to stop breathing.
This defibrillator on wheels will lot save them.

....think I'll stay, if only just to read the usually hysterical responses to the questions posed by the 40k post crowd.....

btw, my comment said nothing about how I think the LiveWire will sell, or whether or not HD will survive. I suppose the thread redundancy should be expected, after all.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by KevinTodd

....think I'll stay, if only just to read the usually hysterical responses to the questions posed by the 40k post crowd.....
btw, my comment said nothing about how I think the LiveWire will sell, or whether or not HD will survive. I suppose the thread redundancy should be expected, after all.

For some reason, I am suddenly reminded if this Dilbert comic strip

[Por_sha911]

I guess HD has realized they are on a dead end street with their traditional demographic market. I just don't see them doing well with this. They would have done better to start a new brand for the EV since "Harley" and "silent" seems to be a contradiction of terms. As far as leakage, the old adage is that a Harley doesn't leak oil, it marks its territory. The new electric will most likely leak value once the fad of being new has worn off.

[herr_oberst]

This could be the Halo for the new technology, and there's trickle down product already or almost ready to go to market in the pipeline.

(Of course, this could also be Harley using customers for R&D (Hello Tesla!!) and they're hoping on a wing and a prayer to get over the technological hurdles in time to get some updated, cheaper product into a whole new and expanding market before the company tanks....)

[Por_sha911]

Don't you think that the tech would be better marketed to the Gold Wing crowd?

[Craig T]

HD sells over $300MM in apparel and general merchandise annually, and that's at a much higher profit margin than bikes. Ten years ago you'd see 50 year-old baby boomers covered from head to toe in HD, boots, shirts, watches, rings. heck, even bed sheets. I don't see that so much anymore.

With that fashion trend going passe', I can't see them staying financially viable regardless of the Livewire sales. You know they're cutting margins close on the Livewire to keep it semi-affordable.

[vash]

Originally Posted by Craig T

HD sells over $300MM in apparel and general merchandise .

WOW!!

that will keep the lights on, no?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Not quite sure at the Motor Company's marketing angle on this.

$30K is a lot of money for a bike. That's the biggest hurdle.

Harley's sales are declining precipitously. Their bikes are aimed towards an aging (but moneyed) population. Those Harley faithful (and older riders in general) look at bikes for recreation. But market research indicates younger riders are more interested in bikes for transportation. So to convince a younger rider to part with $30K (that they likely don't have) and buy a bike (over a car), is going to be a challenge. But if Tesla was successful in selling the electric car as a desirable, premium item (unlike Nissan's Leaf and Chevy's Volt), maybe there's a chance for the LiveWire.

How about Harley made a smaller lighter commuter bike? 500cc air cooled V-twin? The Japanese have been selling small V's for years.

[KevinTodd]

Originally Posted by Zeke

"...most of you..." ???

Do you know anything about what you are talking about? And what about folks like me that have had seven Porsches over time, while maybe in between ownership? (I do have a Porsche at this time, BTW.)

I think that was an attempt to validate your position although you don't mention whether you have a HD or not.

I don't care for bashing threads either but why harpoon the whole membership here to accomplish your agenda?

I think you're right, Zeke. It is certainly not the whole membership to which I was referring. I stand corrected.

I am also, in fact, a Harley owner, and have owned multiple other brands as well.

[Jeff Higgins]

The entire motorcycle industry is circling the drain, not just HD. They continue to dominate the market for "heavyweight" (over 700cc, an arbitrary line, granted) motorcycles with just about half of the market share, leaving the other dozen or so manufacturers fighting over the other half. Yes, it is a drastically shrinking market across the board, but HD still owns half of it. This dominance of their market segment would be akin to, say, Ford manufacturing half of the pickup trucks sold in the world every year. It's a market share others can only dream of.

The Livewire has been around for a couple of years now. Yes, Harley did indeed use its customers for R&D but, unlike so many other companies, did so before they put the product on the market, not after. They hauled a fleet of these things around the country to every bigger motorcycle gathering there is, from Daytona to Laconia to Sturgis, letting thousands of people ride them and soliciting their feedback. They brought them to dealerships so customers could ride them, and all in all, put a good deal of effort into getting the riding public onto one of them before they finalized the design.

They are not shooting for the pimply faced millennial buyer looking for cheap transportation. They are not looking to compete with Kymco scooters as some cheap ass urban commuter / bike messenger disposable plastic transportation. They are looking at making a technological splash, on the level of Tesla, to draw attention to the viability of an all electric motorcycle. They are looking to supply affluent people with a frivolous, but interesting toy with which to garner attention and get the conversation started.

The cheaper "transportation" bikes will follow, from other manufacturers, the ones that will fill the Nissan Leaf's niche, only in the motorcycle world. In the meantime, however, their next introduction will be their "modular" bike concept, with a sport bike and adventure touring bike. These won't be cheap either - think Ducati money for the former, BMW money for the latter. Harley will continue to aim for the higher end of the market where they have built their niche. Much like Porsche, they want to remain something to attain to, something to strive for "someday". That's their place in the market, just as Porsche has no interest in competing with Hyundai, Toyota, et al.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Willie G had the vision to see where the market was going to go. He had the R&D and production done for the V ROD.
Porsche even got involved.
They sold a few albeit HD never got behind the bike for the push as the baby boomers were retarding and buying their bucket list by the millions! (the Twinks)
Willie left and the Ivory tower morons never ever pushed the Vrod bike to the upcoming generations.
In fact, they dumped it!
Like idiots.
If HD fails, IDC as they have missed the train so many times!
They had the gobermebt bail them out at least two times.
So for all their mantra about being independent and American, they have applied some pretty big Socialist ideals.

I'm no expert but the V rod is one badazz looking bike, if I had the $$$ one would probably be sitting in the garage. Shame they didn't put that engine in a sportier frame, especially after the spent all that money developing it.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

I'm no expert but the V rod is one badazz looking bike, if I had the $$$ one would probably be sitting in the garage. Shame they didn't put that engine in a sportier frame, especially after the spent all that money developing it.

They actually did just that, back in 2006. They called it the "Street Rod". They put a more normal rake on the front fork, put the pegs in a normal position under the rider, put twin discs on the front, and a bunch of other stuff. It got rave reviews. No one bought them. Pretty sought after today, since production numbers turned out so low.

[mikehinton]

No objection here to the concept of an electric bike. Admittedly, I'm a little biased since we already have a Chevy Bolt. I just believe that attempting to sell a limited-range bike for $30K is going to be very difficult, even for Harley. Best of luck to them, but I'd be surprised if it turns out to be profitable.

[sugarwood]

Harley-Davidson CEO: Our core rider continues to age, leave the sport

Harley-Davidson CEO: Our core rider continues to age, leave the sport from CNBC.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/01/29/harley-davidson-ceo-our-core-rider-continues-to-age-leave-the-sport.html

[sugarwood]

I think the nail in the coffin, though, was when I was forced to visit a Harley dealership years ago (thank God I wore oil-resistant shoes) and in the clothing/accessories section saw H-D ball caps with fake ponytails attached. I swore never to go near a Harley ever again.

Dang.

[vash]

A ball cap with a fake ponytail?! I googled it and came up zip.

To be smart; the ponytail should have the option to be moved. That way you can flip the bill towards the back. (In green)

[stevej37]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

Another new electric HD - aimed at a younger generation

Will it be less than $5K?