Do you believe in ghosts ?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by IROC

With all due respect to Seahawk, he is also human and subject to the same cognitive limitations as the rest of us. The real "training and experience" takes the form of understanding that every one of us is fallible and that we are easily fooled.

100% correct on both the UFO count and ghosts and my cognitive limitations. I could write a book.

I get those that have doubts, and I would prefer to be in your camp secure in the knowledge I haven't experienced either so I get to have doubts.

I wasn't alone in all four cases, btw.

Is what it is...the Catholic Priest performing his deal because we couldn't rent out our rental house after three tenants bolted was informing.

We burned the house down. I can go find the link.

There used to be a "wall in the sky" planes could not fly through...it was in all the science books.

[pavulon]

I see the ghost of M21sniper regularly posting in the "show me your rear end" thread.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Norm K

The Truth is Out There.

That reminds me of a certain TV show.

https://www.imaginaryworldspodcast.org/the-truth-is-out-there.html

[GH85Carrera]

UFO are far different than an actual being from another star system. Lots of things are UFOs, and that is just all it is, an unidentified flying object. I just can't believe any extraterrestrials have come many trillions of miles and they crash on Earth, or don't just fly around in orbit and try to communicate.

Even if they can get to the speed of light, it takes years, and Einsteins make it clear, a trip to our closest star done at 99.99% of the speed of light would take just a few years on board, but back here on Earth to us, it would bee many thousands of years.

I feel certain somewhere out there on one of the many trillions of planets, intelligent life exists. I just don't think we will ever be able to communicate with them in any way.

[Seahawk]

Glen, I get your logic, I really do.

It is, without concrete proof to the contrary, unassailable.

I wish you well.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Even if they can get to the speed of light, it takes years, and Einsteins make it clear, a trip to our closest star done at 99.99% of the speed of light would take just a few years on board, but back here on Earth to us, it would bee many thousands of years.

Neil DeGrass Tyson explained it for the layman.

Hitler's Olympics radio broadcast in 1936.

Now, assume you are sitting in a big comfy den. A nice big Texas house den. That represents the Milky Way.

In the center of the den is the Earth and radio broadcasts were blasted in 1936.

The earth would be but a micro dot and the distance the radio broadcasts traveled would be the size of a golf ball.

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

UFO are far different than an actual being from another star system. Lots of things are UFOs, and that is just all it is, an unidentified flying object. I just can't believe any extraterrestrials have come many trillions of miles and they crash on Earth, or don't just fly around in orbit and try to communicate.

Even if they can get to the speed of light, it takes years, and Einsteins make it clear, a trip to our closest star done at 99.99% of the speed of light would take just a few years on board, but back here on Earth to us, it would bee many thousands of years.

I feel certain somewhere out there on one of the many trillions of planets, intelligent life exists. I just don't think we will ever be able to communicate with them in any way.

Try calculating the energy requirements for accelerating and decelerating the mass of a reasonable sized starship to and from 99.99%c.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by IROC

With all due respect to Seahawk, he is also human and subject to the same cognitive limitations as the rest of us. The real "training and experience" takes the form of understanding that every one of us is fallible and that we are easily fooled.



Unfortunately, your argument is a straw man and frankly unexpectedly juvenile for a man of your substantial acumen. No one (certainly not me) is pushing "outright denial". Of course there are things we don't understand. Just because we don't know the answer to something doesn't mean the answer is "unknowable" or that the only plausible answer is a supernatural explanation. Or aliens. Or ghosts. Or Bigfoots.

In the history of mankind, the list of things that were once mysteries but are now known and understood is very long. Never...not once, has the answer to one of the mysteries been "supernatural". So, I would submit that subscribing to supernatural explanations for events is the actual "refuge of people who do not want to deal with unpleasant realities" - not those of us who simply ask for evidence for beliefs...

My point was..if the usual suspects do not yield the causation you have to start looking farther afield which includes ghosts aliens and big foots..you can not rule them out. They are possibilities. To categorically say they don't exist is to deny their possibility..which is the avoidance of possibly facing a reality you are I'll prepared emotionally to deal with. That would blow the doors off of your conceptualization of reality.

Man's knowledge and perceptional abilities have limits. Perhaps in the future what are termed as being ghosts can be explained scientifically .that they are in fact people who in someway are caught in between dimensions after they leave this plain of dimensional existence. .

Perhaps Aliens have bent space or use time to be able to travel vast distance.

It is thinking that only the laws of physics that you know exist that limits your possibilities...it keeps you in the box of what is possible. Anything that resides out of the box is a flight of fancy. That must be a safe and secure comforting feeling.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by tabs

It is thinking that only the laws of physics that you know exist that limits your possibilities...it keeps you in the box of what is possible. Anything that resides out of the box is a flight of fancy. That must be a safe and secure comforting feeling.

Not bad.

What it comes down to though is that we can measure and calculate the laws of physics as they apply to our planet, but cannot explain them in the greater sense of the universe.

Analogy: We know what's on the plate of food in front of us, we don't really know how it got there, who grew it, and the plate it sits on we can only see the top half of it, the table it sits on is even a bigger mystery, the room it sits in bigger mystery still, and the house and lot of land even more theoretical constructs..............so on and so forth.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by tabs

Man's knowledge and perceptional abilities have limits. Perhaps in the future what are termed as being ghosts can be explained scientifically .that they are in fact people who in someway are caught in between dimensions after they leave this plain of dimensional existence.

Perhaps. There could be many possibilities. Until there is some evidence to support yours or any other hypotheses, it doesn't make sense to jump to supernatural explanations.

Perhaps Aliens have bent space or use time to be able to travel vast distance.

Perhaps.

It is thinking that only the laws of physics that you know exist that limits your possibilities...it keeps you in the box of what is possible. Anything that resides out of the box is a flight of fancy.

Well, this is the world I live in. Besides, it's not the "laws of physics that I know". I don't claim to know everything, but I do have confidence that there are those who know a lot. Our facility is similar to the LHC, so I have opportunities to interact with those folks on occasion. Trust me when I say that we have good reasons to trust our understanding of the standard model.

But, more locally, my world obeys the laws of physics. You imply that "perhaps" yours doesn't, but offer no evidence to support your claim. Perhaps you are right, but until you can point to even one instance of an event that violates the laws of physics as we understand them, I will remain skeptical. That is my point.

That must be a safe and secure comforting feeling.

It is.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by IROC

But, more locally, my world obeys the laws of physics.

So in other words you are not playing around with particle accelerators and lasers?

2013
Researchers break Newton’s third law — with lasers
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/168771-researchers-seemingly-break-newtons-third-law-create-optical-diametric-drive

2010
For one tiny instant, physicists may have broken a law of nature
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100329214740.htm

[GH85Carrera]

Quantum mechanics makes things that seem to be outside of Newton's laws. One reason Einstein's relativity revolutionized the world. Yes, it was a revolutionary change in the "laws of physics" outside of Newton. No one claims it is the end all of everything, and Hawking radiation is something that would mystify even Einstein. He never really believed black holes were real. Now we know they are, and that they are not forever, and will evaporate eventually. So Newton started with a set of "laws" Einstein added to them, and Hawking refined them. No supernatural forces involved. Although Dark mass and dark energy are not really understood yet. The cool part, science keeps working to figure it all out with a theory of everything.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by kach22i

So in other words you are not playing around with particle accelerators and lasers?

No, that's exactly what we're playing with. Our (mankind's) understanding of particle accelerators is pretty good. We're reliably accelerating a 1.4 MW beam of protons to about 90% of the speed of light here. We even have to take quantum effects into account due to the slow speed that our neutrons are traveling. We're stripping electrons off of negatively charged hydrogen ions (a proton with two electrons) using lasers and we understand that, so we're playing with that stuff.

Finding phenomena that "appears" to violate our current understanding of the standard model (according to one of the links you posted) is a long way from any sort of evidence that ghosts exist. And while I realize that was not your point...the fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know anything and that we must therefore appeal to the supernatural for things we don't understand.

To me, this talk of ghosts represents man's attempt to explain a phenomenon that he doesn't understand. That people often revert to "supernatural" explanations - to me - demonstrates the "primitive" portions of our brains. Throughout history, this is what people did - when they were confronted by things they didn't understand, they assumed that because they didn't understand it, the explanation must be something that is unexplainable (a "supernatural" explanation). History has shown us, though, that once we figure out an explanation for something, 100% of the time that explanation is natural.

If we ever come up with an explanation for why people experience ghosts, I am confident that explanation will be a natural one.

[MBAtarga]

Researchers from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology teamed up with colleagues from the U.S. and Switzerland and returned the state of a quantum computer a fraction of a second into the past. They also calculated the probability that an electron in empty interstellar space will spontaneously travel back into its recent past. The study is published in Scientific Reports.

"This is one in a series of papers on the possibility of violating the second law of thermodynamics. That law is closely related to the notion of the arrow of time that posits the one-way direction of time from the past to the future," said the study's lead author Gordey Lesovik, who heads the Laboratory of the Physics of Quantum Information Technology at MIPT.

"We began by describing a so-called local perpetual motion machine of the second kind. Then, in December, we published a paper that discusses the violation of the second law via a device called a Maxwell's demon," Lesovik said. "The most recent paper approaches the same problem from a third angle: We have artificially created a state that evolves in a direction opposite to that of the thermodynamic arrow of time."


https://phys.org/news/2019-03-physicists-reverse-quantum.html

[Wetwork]

"In the end, the team's conclusions do not mean that humanity is alone in the universe, or that the odds of finding evidence of extra-terrestrial civilizations (both past and present) is unlikely. Instead, it simply means that we can say with greater confidence – based on what we know – that humanity is most likely the only intelligent species in the Milky Way Galaxy at present."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-06-advanced-civilization-universe.html#jCp

Fun, quick read.-WW
ps. Doesn't factor ghosts and such but has some maths on why we haven't found ET's yet.

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

Researchers from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology teamed up with colleagues from the U.S. and Switzerland and returned the state of a quantum computer a fraction of a second into the past. They also calculated the probability that an electron in empty interstellar space will spontaneously travel back into its recent past. The study is published in Scientific Reports.

"This is one in a series of papers on the possibility of violating the second law of thermodynamics. That law is closely related to the notion of the arrow of time that posits the one-way direction of time from the past to the future," said the study's lead author Gordey Lesovik, who heads the Laboratory of the Physics of Quantum Information Technology at MIPT.

"We began by describing a so-called local perpetual motion machine of the second kind. Then, in December, we published a paper that discusses the violation of the second law via a device called a Maxwell's demon," Lesovik said. "The most recent paper approaches the same problem from a third angle: We have artificially created a state that evolves in a direction opposite to that of the thermodynamic arrow of time."


https://phys.org/news/2019-03-physicists-reverse-quantum.html

What we perceive as matter are astronomically large numbers of "elemental particles" entangled at the quantum level so behave very differently from isolated particles in a vacuum. Anti-particles can be viewed as normal particles moving backward in time.

[sammyg2]

I remember this one time when i ……
Oh wait, that wasn't me.




(Steven Wright IIRC).

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Is what it is...the Catholic Priest performing his deal because we couldn't rent out our rental house after three tenants bolted was informing.

We burned the house down. I can go find the link.

First off, I’m sceptical when it comes to ghosts and UFOs. I think extraterrestrial beings may have played a role in several human advancements including the pyramids, Stonehenge, and whatever came out of whatever happened at Roswell. I could be wrong but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on.

This being said, can you please elaborate on what the catholic priest did in your house? I’d love to know.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

First off, I’m sceptical when it comes to ghosts and UFOs. I think extraterrestrial beings may have played a role in several human advancements including the pyramids, Stonehenge, and whatever came out of whatever happened at Roswell. I could be wrong but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on.

This being said, can you please elaborate on what the catholic priest did in your house? I’d love to know.

I’ll send you a PM.

This place is full of ghosts

[tabs]

Originally Posted by IROC

No, that's exactly what we're playing with. Our (mankind's) understanding of particle accelerators is pretty good. We're reliably accelerating a 1.4 MW beam of protons to about 90% of the speed of light here. We even have to take quantum effects into account due to the slow speed that our neutrons are traveling. We're stripping electrons off of negatively charged hydrogen ions (a proton with two electrons) using lasers and we understand that, so we're playing with that stuff.

Finding phenomena that "appears" to violate our current understanding of the standard model (according to one of the links you posted) is a long way from any sort of evidence that ghosts exist. And while I realize that was not your point...the fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know anything and that we must therefore appeal to the supernatural for things we don't understand.

To me, this talk of ghosts represents man's attempt to explain a phenomenon that he doesn't understand. That people often revert to "supernatural" explanations - to me - demonstrates the "primitive" portions of our brains. Throughout history, this is what people did - when they were confronted by things they didn't understand, they assumed that because they didn't understand it, the explanation must be something that is unexplainable (a "supernatural" explanation). History has shown us, though, that once we figure out an explanation for something, 100% of the time that explanation is natural.

If we ever come up with an explanation for why people experience ghosts, I am confident that explanation will be a natural one.

You may find that ghosts (spirits of dead people) are part of the natural world. The rational is just outside our realm of comprehension at this time.