War

[targa87]

racea911,

i'm saddened that the senate minority leader failed so miserably to make his point...

as far as i'm concerned the democratic party has plenty to atone for too. they authorized the use of force, after all.

[911SC Pilot]

I FOUND SANTA.,..,HE DOES EXSIST!!!!

[speeder]

Yes, Hans Blix did find violations, but they were not along the order of chemical weapons stashes, more like small missiles that exceeded the 150kilometer(? is this correct), range. Is/was Iraq playing games and trying to keep some weapons? Of course. They have Iran as a next door neighbor, just for openers, the middle east is not the most touchy-feely place to be arm-less. Do I sympathise with the bastard? Hell no! Just explaining the dynamic in terms other than presented by our leaders, that he plans on attacking us. That would always be suicidal, he is way too much into self-preservation for that.

I am certainly not claiming that the inspectors had completed their job and looked inside of every cave in Iraq, but they were also not complaining of lack of access to a significant degree. There is a difference between non-compliance and restricting access of inspectors. Even with the resolutions, Sadam was allowed to possess certain weapons, so demanding that he "completely disarm" is a little bit disingenious in the spin war. Non-compliance can of course include anything, from relatively minor to extremely serious. Thus far, inspectors had only found the former.

And make no mistake about it, there has been a major PR/spin war already being waged for public opinion by our leaders. Hell, I thought that they were losing it based on what the inspectors were finding, but shows what I know about public opinion. BTW, I follow the news pretty addictively, and I have yet to hear even one of the loudest peaceniks defend Sadam Hussein. He is impossible to support, we just disagree on what is the wisest way to contain/deal w/ him, all angles considered. The middle east is a nightmare place to be involved in conflicts, in fact it is one of the best arguments that the isolationist crowd has. If we could somehow become less dependant on foreign oil, we could get out of there and let them kill each other if they want. We would not be the evil satan U.S.A. any more, no reason for terrrorism against us because we mostly ignore them. Maybe just send them some aid. (A hell of a lot cheaper than having our forces there). Hey, it works in Africa, (staying out of their nightmare conflicts for the most part).

[Brian993]

I dont have much to offer to this. I am with the U.S.A. on all things as far as the outside world is concerned, I have no choice nor would I want one.

Liberals and conservatives, I believe we all have a bit of both in us. It only depends on the issue at hand. Thats what makes us Americans.

Regardless of anyones opinions, we are going on a ride, and your not driving. The goverment is.

This is were freedom and independence becomes cloudy. I support our soldiers and would be willing to die for our country. I hope the goverment knows for sure what the outcome will be.

We all have much at risk!

So I for one will keep the faith!

[racea911]

Great post Brian and very true.

Great post Denis, although I don't agree with you at all.

[island911]

Originally posted by Brian993
. . Regardless of anyones opinions, we are going on a ride, and your not driving. The goverment is.
. . .

A 993 ride:
Kids: Dad, can we stop at McDonalds for some fries?
Dad: No
Kids: Dad, can we stop at McDonalds for some fries?
Dad: No!... . Im driving strrraight through.
. . . .
Kids: Dad, can we stop . . .johny has that same look as when he's gunna hurl.
Dad: . . .? Brian, what do you do? You're driving . . .do you listen to those pesky backseat drivers?

I'm just saying, I'm glad Saddam is not my driver. . . .he would turn around and shoot anyone not with his plan. (even his son-inlaw)

our driver is determined to drive "straight through," but he is a bit more concerned with his passengers needs.

[hoff944]

Here is my take. The liberals don't want war because they know the US will go in and win and Bush will come out with a favorable opinion. The liberals don't want the tax cuts either because that would improve the economy and make Bush look good. Don't forget whats happening in 2004. They make Bush look bad, and it gives them a leg up in the presidential race. Also look for the class warfare talk to heat up more and the talk about the "HUGE" defecit which in terms of percentages is one of the lowest in decades, but your average government educated person can't understand economics and percentages.

[island911]

Originally posted by speeder
. . .If we could somehow become less dependant on foreign oil, we could get out of there and let them kill each other if they want. We would not be the evil satan U.S.A. any more, no reason for terrrorism against us because we mostly ignore them. Maybe just send them some aid. . .. .

The isolationist approach would be difficult in that the US would be faulted (demonized) for being rich, and not helping.
"Aid" would be seen as helping the potential enemy of another. Propoganda would read "US helps strengthen enemy."

The isolationist approach will work when the US is an impoverished country. Maybe then the liberals will be guilt free.

[Brian993]

Island -

With all the respect I have for you, sometimes I think you behave in a way to only incite bad behavior.

Dont you think we all have thought this through?

Do you realize at this point we are powerless?

The only thing we have left at this point is our opinions!

Regardless of our intelligence we can only sit and watch despite any opposition!

Our fellow americans are armed and ready.

It is us against them, bar none.

Oh yea, I always stop at Ronnie's steak house! And so should you.

[WOODPIE]

Seems like the mood has become one of acceptance/resignation, regardless which side of the political fence we come down on.

Next question: Which producer/director will have the first movie version in the box office? Say, with an opening date of July 4....

Ed

[Brian993]

Sounds about right!

[island911]

Sorry Brian; I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't stop at Ronnie's steak house for your kids.

I'm just saying; while yes, things are going forward, our driver isn't the type of guy to completly ingnore his passengers (so to speak)

edit: . . . inciting bad behavior!? . . ..YOU are asking!?

[beepbeep]

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
[B]I didn't vote for GW and I don't really care for many of his policies or his prowess on the podium. Yet in this difficult time I think the world is lucky he is in office and surrounded by the capable people that make this country work.

Oh yeah! We are very lucky to see U.S. going into dubious wars, bypassing U.N. being led into it by notoriously untalented son of ex. president that won less than 50% votes. Hell yeah, we've never been luckier...f****g great!

Reading all these posts I am astounded as to how quickly people forget about 9/11. This conflict is about removing from power (killing *edit*as needed) irrational people that threaten the security of a mostly peaceful world. Iraq may not have the capability to launch a military strike against the U.S. but it does have the resources to acquire WMD and is working to distribute them around the world.

Yes, 9/11 sucks but Iraq has less conections to Al Quaida than Saudi Arabia, which is "friendly nation" in that way that they aren't interested in building oil cartels. Sadam is a bad man and should be removed, but people doesnt seem to realize that you cannot wage war on terorrism by bypassing U.N. and bombing nations as geographical entities as way of miss-guided retaliation and calming in-house hawks.

Wars are bad, costly and people die. This one won't solve terrorist problem. Actually, i'm afraid it will just consolidate arab nations even further into supporting terrorists... it will probably quench thirst for revenge after 9/11 but i believe it will create heaps of other problems in long term.

Well, now it's already started...just get it done swiftly, pull back those, get rid of that moron in the White House.

[turbo6bar]

Go ahead and complain, Goran. When you really need help, we'll be there...always have, always will.

The United States is like a Porsche, because everyone knows you're top dog.

Jürgen

[racea911]

Yeah, it's amazing how a guy in Sweden has it all figured out.

Yeah, you are right, GW won with less than half the vote. Here is a breakdown of the counties in the United States that GW won in the 2000 election. GW votes are in red, Gore's counties won are in blue.

[beepbeep]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
Go ahead and complain, Goran. When you really need help, we'll be there...always have, always will.

The United States is like a Porsche, because everyone knows you're top dog.

Jürgen

Well thanx for all help.

Hmm... that sort of non-critical "we're top dog, we can do what we please" ranting often causes trouble beacuse it p****s off people, and such people are less inclined to co-operate.

Read what i wrote once again. I'm not complaining just for fun...there are reasons and i think they are legitimate.


Cheers!

[bell]

goran.......nevermind, i'm not even going to start in on your opinion, but you're from sweden right?

i'm an american.........always have been, always will be. we as americans sometimes overlook how good we have it, every once and a while we're reminded of the evil in the world. "i have no scuds...." saddam says yet he fires them at our guys.
the bastard is going down and we'll try to avoid hurting the innocents. the first wave started today at 9:11pm iraq time.......think it's a coincedence? we all know it's not.
the UN failed in my opinion, people are worried we're calling out the bad guys.......well we are, and that's our right as americans.
iraq may not be the main threat as far as terrorism goes but if you can buy the technology then you can use it, so were shutting down this part of the mall in some respect.

i have family in the 82nd and close friends who drive M1a's, they were also in the gulf in the previous attack, this time the job is going to get done properly.
protesters can do what they want.........remember this IS america.
opinions will be spoken, people will *****, the economy could get better or worse (i'm betting better), and people will die.......but when the job is done we will be able to KEEP being americans.
i have concerns for the unknown nuclear weapons, when we find out about them it'll be too late, but we are americans.....we will overcome.
godspeed to our guys/gals.......... those who oppose us will see how strong a technologically advanced voluntary military force can be.....period.

[pwd72s]

Geeze guys...has Saddam or George W. given any of us a ring to ask our opinion? For that matter, how about USA congressmen or senators? No calls to me that I can recall, other than a recorded message or 28, during election season....now that the war has started? All I see is mouthing off before cameras from our politicians. Bottom line, and a question for all...do you think allowing Saddam to remain in power will further the causes of peace and of the people of a nation deciding it's course? If you do, you have a legit cause to be against what's happening right now. If not? Well, keep mouthing off, but I choose not to read it.

[dd74]

Sadam is not THE problem, he is part of the problem. The remaining Arab states (in Bush's mind) might constitute the remaining problem.

As I've said on this thread and others, Iran most probably will be next. Saudi Arabia might follow. The hunt for Al Quaida (sp?) and its connection to WTC is a good positioning tool to initiate action in either Iran or Saudi Arabia. In fact, if I was asked on basis of Islamic fundamentalism who the U.S. should neutralize first - Iraq or S.A. - I would say S.A. because of their more conservative Islamic ties, control of oil and their financial potency to fund terrorism.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, and I raise it just for argument. One question: does it seem that N. Korea been eerily quiet since Bush announced his 48-hour count down?

As for the region at hand: I have a feeling because of this show of force in Iraq, a serious wake-up call has already come to the other Arab states. Iraq, with all their boisterous talk, has barely put up a fight. I would expect much of the same from Iran and S.A. I would also expect we could very invade them the same way we're invading Iraq because of the oil capacities and regional importance both these countries have.

Beepbeep: not to sound ingracious, but you do know that if there is a U.S.A. victory in this American-led battle with Iraq, it will insure Europe will continue to get her supply of oil, right?

[82SuperC]

Why should we care about what other nations think about us and our policies? Sometimes doing what is right is better than appeasing friends and doing nothing. It is obvious we have few friends anyway so does anything change just because we go at it alone? The UN debacle was instrumental in identifying who we could count on and who we couldn't. (BTW, more nations are supportng this coalition than the first Gulf War). Somebody always gets hurt when you confront reality and reality is that the US is a powerful nation that "CAN" shape the world. Is it imperialism, NO! Is it idealism, probably, but a hope for a democratic world sure beats the pants off a communist and socialist world. The world ought to be thankful that it isn't China or North Korea leading a "diplomatic solution". Wonder how they would treat the nations that they would conquer? Let's ask Tibet! When its all said and done, Iraq will be free and sovereign and the US will go home leaving billions in financial aide,and the world a little safer. No occupation, just freedom. And that is a good thing.

I wonder what would happen to those tiny little countries when we finally get smart and pull out our military presence. Why defend nations who aren't our friends to begin with. I'm sure France and Germany are going to find out soon!