War

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by beepbeep
Right now, i just se usual "we are most powerfull nation in the world" chants and no explanation...or is that an explanation?

We are the most powerful nation and the world has expectations on us to perform as one. If we percieve a threat to the U.S. or her allies then we have a responsibility to act upon it...regardless if you acknowledge the same threat or not. If we left the fate of the U.S. (and thus the free world as we know it) up to the UN we might as well take military strategy lessons from France.

[beepbeep]

Hey GORAN THE MORAN!
I'll answer number 1. for you.. enjoy it... you Fasist Liberal!!

Hehe... intellectuals have taken out heavy artillery

Thanx all (well, most of you) for a interesting discussion and think about those three questions. I personaly believe that itäs unwise to go into war with less than three firm "yes" on those questions...on the other hand i'm sidelined moronic fasist (hey, am I allowed to do one of those "you aren't spelling right" things as well?) liberal...

Take care.

/Moronic Liberal has left the building

[Targa Dude]

Like My Mom.. has always..said.. " IF ITS TOO HOT IN THE KITCHEN
GET OUT!" Looks like your cooked..
I really did want to answer your questions 2. and 3. but I guess you can't handle the truth..
Just like a true liberal it's when the truth comes out you run and hide.
Jorge (Targa Dude)

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I hereby nominate France, Germany, and Sweden as the new "Axis of Spineless Surrender-Monkeys"

[dd74]

You guys seen CNN since about 10AM PST? It looks like "Shock and Awe" is well underway in Baghdad.

I just can't really fault France and Germany exclusively for not being with us. There are so many factors involving their trade with Iraq, and their population, which (at least in Paris as I've seen) has a lot of Arab people.

What I can fault is their adamant attitude against the U.S. France, in particular, has as little ground to stand on in re. to the U.S. campaign as we "might" for going through with the campaign. They have yet to bring up a tangible reason for us not to do what we're doing. Again, I wonder why: is it because of France's economic interlinking with Iraq? Is it because of its fear of terrorism?

It's complete tit for tat on their end. Nothing substantial.

Island911 has a good point: this war will not end terrorism. To end it is almost impossible, because so much of what terrorism evolves from is an ideological mindset; i.e. religion, culture, longstanding economics where dollar-for-dollar disparity has been literally bred into generation after generation, etc.

Just a sidenote: I'm no saint on this board, but TargaDude - man - ease up on BeepBeep (Goran). As does he, you also make good arguments which are better put without calling anyone "moron."

[Targa Dude]

The problem here is, 1. This is a serious subject, I will not take it lightly. 2. Me as an American will defend My country in anyway I can even if comes down to a war of words. 3. When Foriegners that don't even live here criticize my country and My Leader which I support, It is my duty as an American to defend them both. I will not appologize for this. I do know my facts and I will recite them if and when I feel it's appropriate. MORON is a term that I use for persons that I believe are anti american, Liberals, Leftwing Facists, and persons that don't know their facts.

I'm really a nice guy.. Just don't put my Country or my president down.

Jorge (Targa Dude)

[RickC]

Wait a minute - wasn't the architect of our entrance into World War II a Liberal? I think the guy even CREATED the Welfare State and Big Government - his name was Franklin something?

And didn't some other guy from Missouri start us along the road to the Cold War? And didn't that Churchill guy introduce welfare to England with his buddy Llyod George while he was a Liberal?

Hmm, it's possible that those were good ideas then - ideas that kept Communism at bay and strengthened Constitutional Government here in America. Ideas that helped to heal the flaws of capitalism as it was then practiced. Evolution of a Society towards perfection - or at least a better life for one's children - The American Dream.

If these ideas are less than useful now - well - to try and legislate for the distant future is not what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to legislate as well as we can for OUR times, and then let the next generation discover and fix the errors we've made.

And what about the opposition in those times? Weren't those opposed to our fighting Hitler in the years before WWII Conservative Republicans & college students?

Wasn't Pat Buchanan the most representative of this wing of the Republicans just 10 years ago after the fall of the Soviets? Didn't he think that we could retreat to a Fortress America?

Yes, Liberals can be loony (Like Republican Teddy Roosevelt, I actually PREFER Yosemite without condos on El Capitan).

But the REAL reality is that Americans need to study history a bit more, and try to hide from its lessons a little bit less. That much is common to both parties.

The current vicious divide between Liberals and Conservatives is a four decades old fight between the Baby Boomers - almost none of whom on either side decided to fight in SE Asia.

I for one can't wait until that generation of politicians passes on to retirement. The whole country, IMHO, will be better off. They've never gotten over the battles of their formative years, and thus can't see the situation as clearly as those who went before and those who will come after them.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by dd74
What I can fault is their adamant attitude against the U.S. France, in particular, has as little ground to stand on in re. to the U.S. campaign as we "might" for going through with the campaign. They have yet to bring up a tangible reason for us not to do what we're doing. Again, I wonder why: is it because of France's economic interlinking with Iraq? Is it because of its fear of terrorism?

From what I've heard on TV, the French were trading in weapons with Iraq as little as three months ago. If that is true, it's appalling. After the Gulf War, I don't see much good reason to sell weapons to Saddam. I don't think any country has been totally clean, but the French should know better.

Jurgen

[Aurel]

From what I've heard on TV, the French were trading in weapons with Iraq as little as three months ago. If that is true, it's appalling. After the Gulf War, I don't see much good reason to sell weapons to Saddam. I don't think any country has been totally clean, but the French should know better.

You did not hear correctly, Jurgen. Three months ago, spare parts for french helicopters and Mirage were smugled into Iraq by a company based in Saudi Arabia. The french government had nothing to do with it. I am getting tired of the permanent french bashing while Russia, China, Germany have also voiced similar positions (just to name a few).

Aurel

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by Aurel
You did not hear correctly, Jurgen. Three months ago, spare parts for french helicopters and Mirage were smugled into Iraq by a company based in Saudi Arabia. The french government had nothing to do with it. I am getting tired of the permanent french bashing while Russia, China, Germany have also voiced similar positions (just to name a few).

That is why I said "If that is true, it is appalling." I did not hear it over widespread news agencies, so I did not know if it was true. Now I know it was wrong, and I will not spread that rumor again.

There is no love between the French and Americans. Why try to hide it?

[arrogant american persona]Personally, I feel the US needs to stop trying to please everyone. Then China, Asia, and Europe would realize how badly they need us.[/arrogant american persona]

Jurgen

[Aurel]

I beleive the americans hate the french just because they are jealous: they do not know how to cook correctly, have a crapy culture, no class, no castles, no history, wine with plastic caps, fat wives and the dumbest president on earth. It is a terrible complex of inferiority that brut military force or billions of dollars can do nothing about.

Now, flame on, people

Aurel

[island911]

Brilliant, Aurel . . you've cracked the code. . .solved the american enigma.

We *do* covet those snails. mmmm, chewy snot in garlic.
We *are* nervous that the popular french culture will displace the omnipresent english/american culture.
We too want your class system, so we to can holding people down for no reason.
Yes; our DisneyWorld castles are lacking those fly infestations that make your french castles "all the buzzz."
And clearly we want to trade our short proud history for frances doormat history.
We hide our heads in shame that our state-side wine production so dwarfs the french, that the cork production can't keep up.

Of course we also want follow the french marriage model of wives so hidious that every man has an excuss to find a dumb young mistress.



So Aurel, what prompted your flame here? Did you figure Americans needed to be taken down a notch?

[Aurel]

I was just researching evidence of an american sense of humor. This is a vital asset in times of war. Your reply was rather encouraging, Dr. Island. We are on the right path

Aurel

[emcon5]

A note on France's motivations:

From:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20030325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_france_rebuilding_iraq_2

French companies — many with ties to Baghdad stretching back decades — have established themselves as the largest suppliers of goods to Iraq since a U.N. trade embargo was partially lifted in 1996.

In 2001, France exported $705 million worth of goods to Iraq within the framework of the United Nations' now-frozen oil-for-food program. Communications equipment maker Alcatel clinched a $75 million contract to upgrade Baghdad's phone network, and Renault sold $75 million worth of tractors and farming vehicles to Iraq.

French oil giant TotalFinaElf probably has the biggest stake. It spent six years in the 1990s doing preparatory work on two giant oil fields and has signed two tentative agreements with Saddam to develop them.

Tom

[Aurel]

And your point is ? The french did not bomb anyone to get these contracts. Halliburton has already been awarded $489M to rebuild Iraq oil fields

http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/companies/war_contracts/index.htm

This also tells a lot about america`s motivations...

Aurel

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by Aurel
And your point is ? The french did not bomb anyone to get these contracts. Halliburton has already been awarded $489M to rebuild Iraq oil fields

http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/companies/war_contracts/index.htm

This also tells a lot about america`s motivations...

Aurel

The same article mentions:

"Cheney divested himself of all interest in Halliburton, the largest U.S. oilfield services company, after the 2000 election"

Regardless, there are many motivations for this war, not just oil contracts. Talking about oil contracts, the France/Iraq deals (against U.N. resolutions that France supported) indirectly supply Saddam with money that would have funded the weapons that would be dropped on others. I guess as long as France is off the target list then that's alright?

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by Aurel
I beleive the americans hate the french just because they are jealous: they do not know how to cook correctly, have a crapy culture, no class, no castles, no history, wine with plastic caps, fat wives and the dumbest president on earth. It is a terrible complex of inferiority that brut military force or billions of dollars can do nothing about.

Now, flame on, people

Aurel

An attempt at a little humor Aurel? Since you live in the U.S. I'll take your word on that it was totally tongue/cheek. I've been to France many times and lived in Europe for a year in the 80's and I can say that your comments are pretty close to the real setiment there. The sad thing about France is that they are universally unliked even by their neighbors. Our host Wayne commented about his less than pleasant visit to France and I have to say he has a point. After 5 trips to Paris I will no longer subject myself to the hassles that come with visiting that city. In Paris and most larger French cities the people are agressively rude and obnoxious, the celebrated food is below typical American standards (unless you want to drop $200+ on dinner, its plain flat out filthy as are the personal hygiene habits of its populous, and the street population (homeless and/or beggers) rule the public transport systems.

France has some real strengths however. The Normandy coast, Chomonix, Bordeaux and Cote-Du-Rhones are real jewels. Regardless of what you hear about wine, for super premium wine (first growth Bordeaux and Burgundy) California wineries still play second fiddle to the best France has to offer. However everyday wine ($30/bottle or less) California is king. The food in France is expensive and inferior to what you can find in the U.S. Sure we have some real ketchup lovers here but predominantly Americans eat better (quality and ...unfortunately quantity) than the typical French person.

I guess the comment that most offends me is the "crappy culture" comment. The U.S. represents a "melting pot" of the best the world has to offer. Positive cultural habits get picked up and integrated into society, less attractive ones fall to the wayside.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Aurel
And your point is ?

That it seems France's motivations on the UN Security Council have little to do with the interests of security, and everything to do with the interests of France.

Halliburton has already been awarded $489M to rebuild Iraq oil fields

http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/new...racts/index.htm

This also tells a lot about america`s motivations...

Did you even read that article? It does not say Halliburton was awarded $489M. It says President Bush asked Congress for $489.3 million to cover the cost of repairing damage to Iraq's oil facilities. It also says the Halliburton is working on a "cost plus" basis, so they will only get paid for expenses plus a few small percentage fee ( 2-5%, according to this article)

And before you say something stupid about how the only reason they got the contract is because Vice President Cheney used to work there, that too is nonsense. They got the contract because they had extensive experience from the last time Sadam and his homies caused trouble, and they were the only company that could do the job on short notice.

The way things look at the moment, they might get nothing. So far only seven wells have been set fire, and a crew from Kuwait has already extinguished one. Depending on how much Saddam wants to buttf**k his people on his way down, that may be all there is.

As to the inferiority of American culture to that of France, I truly hope that our troops swing by Paris on the way home for some R&R. I imagine it would be refreshing for the french women to sleep with a winner for a change that doesn't call her Frauline. As a bonus, maybe they will leave behind some soap and deoderant, and the subversive idea that hairy pits on a woman are not sexy.

Tom

[Victor]

Originally posted by emcon5

As to the inferiority of American culture to that of France, I truly hope that our troops swing by Paris on the way home for some R&R. I imagine it would be refreshing for the french women to sleep with a winner for a change that doesn't call her Frauline. As a bonus, maybe they will leave behind some soap and deoderant, and the subversive idea that hairy pits on a woman are not sexy.

Tom

Great idea stud man. Why don't you be a big hero, go to an army disposal store and get yourself a used US army uniform (HEY - the Iraqi's did it so it can't be that hard). Then fly over there all dressed up and fresh from victory looking and try your luck in a bar somewhere in France?

Here's another idea: If pictures of your 20 year old Porsche don't impress them, tell them you are Michael Moore! He's american after all.

Hey dude, just ribbing you man. So seriously, when was the last time you f*cked a french bird anyway? Have you ever been within 100 yards of one of thier supposedly hairy armpits?

[Victor]

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
However everyday wine ($30/bottle or less) California is king.

Wowzers! Does that mean when I have a craving for some good 'ol merkun' cuisine, I can cruze by a drive thru and order a Californian chardonnay, merlot, cabernet sauvignon or chablis instead of a watery coke to wash down my quarter pounder with?

Oh, hang on a minute, them's all Frenchy words - better start renaming your wine lists.