Prison reform

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by otto_kretschmer

the purpose of a prison is punishment and deterrence
]

How is that working out?

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

This has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, Mike. While a worthwhile topic in its own right, please don't sidetrack and dilute this thread with your misguided interjection of this wholly unrelated topic. Start a new thread or something. Actually, there have been plenty of threads on this already. Please go find one of those.

Thank you for setting me straight, your honor. Please be kind, I am a mere peasant who clearly overstepped my humble lot in life. Glad we have great ones like yourself who self appoint themselves as judge and jury regarding all things. For your brilliance, authority and exalted position in life is a gift to mere paupers like myself.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

Jeff, I think your argument suffers from binaryism (a word I made up). People will not fall neatly into "feral" and redeemable categories. There are as many gradations as there are people. Where's the line? It's a pretty important line--maybe even so important that it shouldn't be a line at all. Maybe something else should come into play . . . hark . . . those are the ghostly echoes of the founding fathers I hear, asking us: WTF, Dudes? How come you forgot all about Due Process.

Not to mention that we in the US have not exactly covered ourselves in glory as to whom we incarcerate. Every year, prisoners are exonerated on DNA evidence or other proof of innocence, innocent folks who served decades because they were either wrongly accused, had confessions beaten out of them, were wrongly convicted, are routinely under-represented because we starve of PD offices. You can bet more than a few wrongly accused have been executed over the years. So--what makes us so sure that as we all merrily wave to the buses headed off to the gas chambers that we have made the right choice? Makes me kinda uncomfortable.

We have covered all of this over the course of this discussion, Terry. So, in summary:

Yes, we incarcerate too many people for too trivial of offenses. There has to be another way. For those trivial offenses.

Yes, we wrongly convict people. We've established that maybe we should not execute on a first conviction (I emphasize that because it's often not a first offense).

We have narrowed our "qualifications" to violent repeat offenders. Nobody gets "wrongly convicted" multiple times. I proposed that our already established "three strikes" laws, wherein these violent offenders are incarcerated for life with no parole, be executed instead. I believe we can be relatively certain that this lot is beyond redemption.

We have tried our current method for decades. We have mountains of data that we have accumulated regarding recidivism vs. rehabilitation rates. They are not good. Actually, they well and truly suck. No one is happy with the results, not even you. Isn't the classic definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results? We have tried and tried. Maybe it's time to try something else.

[Tobra]

Social engineering is what got us to where we are now.

Welfare programs originated in the 1960s truly appear they were designed to break up families and encourage the least equipped to raise children by rewarding for having more. I like the idea of prison reform, but maybe it would be more efficient to spend the money on these guys smarter when they are younger and the possibility of redeeming them is not quite as remote.

People like to blame movies, tv and video games for the rise violence and sometimes shocking lack of respect for life. The media hypes every atrocity like a carnival barker, and we don't educate them like we used to, so they fall for some really stupid stuff. I always tell people it is not one thing, it is everything. You are a fat bastard hyper(tensive+cholesterol+glycemic) with heel pain. First off, you are carrying more weight than you should. Colin Chapman had this right. Excess weight stresses the chassis, so your foot/knee/back hurt. More stress on the pump, so you have high blood pressure. Poor eating habits, so your sugar and cholesterol get jacked. Pancreas can't keep up with the sugar, so it starts crapping out. Cholesterol starts sticking to the plumbing, so your arteries get hard and narrow, taking out the eyes, kidneys and finishing off the heart. Bang, you are a 60 year old diabetic with retinopathy, nepropathy looking at open heart surgery, what are you worrying about your foot.

Mr Higgins, I think that it is not one thing it is everything applies to more than your health. We have devalued life itself with our society using many different tools. Movies and video games glorify killing and mayhem. You can play the knockout game and be a Youtube sensation. You can become famous for mass murder. The blonde woman on the news with the perfect teeth will talk about you and show a picture of you looking cool in your leather jacket if you kill enough people in a spectacular enough fashion.

I think maybe he is not so far off with the abortion thing being a part of it. We have made it like getting your teeth cleaned, scraping away something insignificant. It has become a right, something to speak of with pride and fury.

How could this not contribute to how much life has been devalued in our society?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Thank you for setting me straight, your honor. Please be kind, I am a mere peasant who clearly overstepped my humble lot in life. Glad we have great ones like yourself who self appoint themselves as judge and jury regarding all things. For your brilliance, authority and exalted position in life is a gift to mere paupers like myself.

What an embarrassingly immature response. I guess I've come to expect this sort of thing from you, Mike.

We are having a discussion on prison reform and capital punishment. It is not unreasonable to ask that you stay on topic with the rest of us and leave your abortion discussion, which has nothing to do with this, out of it. Like I said, we have had (and I'm sure will continue to have) many discussions regarding abortion. Your comments are best left for those discussions. If you cannot muster the maturity to do that, please just stay out of this one.

Oh, and grow up a little. Your sniveling little tantrum is beneath you. At least I used to think it was...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Social engineering is what got us to where we are now.

Welfare programs originated in the 1960s truly appear they were designed to break up families and encourage the least equipped to raise children by rewarding for having more. I like the idea of prison reform, but maybe it would be more efficient to spend the money on these guys smarter when they are younger and the possibility of redeeming them is not quite as remote.

People like to blame movies, tv and video games for the rise violence and sometimes shocking lack of respect for life. The media hypes every atrocity like a carnival barker, and we don't educate them like we used to, so they fall for some really stupid stuff. I always tell people it is not one thing, it is everything. You are a fat bastard hyper(tensive+cholesterol+glycemic) with heel pain. First off, you are carrying more weight than you should. Colin Chapman had this right. Excess weight stresses the chassis, so your foot/knee/back hurt. More stress on the pump, so you have high blood pressure. Poor eating habits, so your sugar and cholesterol get jacked. Pancreas can't keep up with the sugar, so it starts crapping out. Cholesterol starts sticking to the plumbing, so your arteries get hard and narrow, taking out the eyes, kidneys and finishing off the heart. Bang, you are a 60 year old diabetic with retinopathy, nepropathy looking at open heart surgery, what are you worrying about your foot.

Mr Higgins, I think that it is not one thing it is everything applies to more than your health. We have devalued life itself with our society using many different tools. Movies and video games glorify killing and mayhem. You can play the knockout game and be a Youtube sensation. You can become famous for mass murder. The blonde woman on the news with the perfect teeth will talk about you and show a picture of you looking cool in your leather jacket if you kill enough people in a spectacular enough fashion.

I think maybe he is not so far off with the abortion thing being a part of it. We have made it like getting your teeth cleaned, scraping away something insignificant. It has become a right, something to speak of with pride and fury.

How could this not contribute to how much life has been devalued in our society?

I think the optic at play here, and at play all too often in our society, is that we have convinced ourselves that this is a "modern" problem, a result of our decaying society and moral values. I disagree. We have been encumbered with violent, recidivist criminals for the entire history of mankind. I'm not convinced it's any worse (or better) today than it has ever been. I do believe that we have dealt more effectively with them in other times and places. Our current "kid gloves" approach is, I believe, a modern phenomena. One that has become glaringly apparent to be ineffective. I think we all agree on that.

[Chocaholic]

Ouch...seem to have struck a nerve. Please continue with your discussion of who lives and dies. I won’t distract you by including the single largest segment of humanity affected by such decisions. I’m far too immature for such lofty topics.


From Tobra’s insightful comment above (about which you neglected to comment):

We have devalued life itself with our society using many different tools.
I think maybe he is not so far off with the abortion thing being a part of it. We have made it like getting your teeth cleaned, scraping away something insignificant. It has become a right, something to speak of with pride and fury.
How could this not contribute to how much life has been devalued in our society?


Carry on. 3...2...1...

[otto_kretschmer]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

How is that working out?

depends how you see things..

I can walk outside and get my mail and not get mugged, or drive to Vermont to see my family and not have any problems with criminals

if that's the standard, its working pretty good

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by otto_kretschmer

if that's the standard, its working pretty good

That's a worthless standard. You are safe until you aren't.
With criminals being returned to the population the same criminals they were when they went in, we are filling not only prisons but the general population with bad guys.

On the other hand, with 5 year recidivism rate of about 75% most of them are only a threat for another five years before they go back under government control. So you have that going for you.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Ouch...seem to have struck a nerve.

Not in the least. Just an annoyance and distraction, a petulant child throwing yet another one of your infamous hissy fits.

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

I’m far too immature for such lofty topics.

Apparently.

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Carry on. 3...2...1...

This seems to be your go-to when you are unable to engage intellectually in a discussion. You have used this a lot.

So, um, yeah - it's not unreasonable to ask that our discussion regarding prison reform and capital punishment remain focused on those topics. Again, as I have said twice already, we have had many discussions regarding abortion. It's an important topic. Many of us (including myself) have some very strong feelings regarding that topic. This particular discussion is simply not the place for it, however. I'm sorry if that upsets you so.

Anyway, enough of that. The adults here are having a discussion. We would love to have you join us. Just please don't derail yet another thread with one of your completely unrelated pet peeves, followed up by your incessant whining when someone politely asks you to refrain from doing so.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

That's a worthless standard. You are safe until you aren't.
With criminals being returned to the population the same criminals they were when they went in, we are filling not only prisons but the general population with bad guys.

On the other hand, with 5 year recidivism rate of about 75% most of them are only a threat for another five years before they go back under government control. So you have that going for you.

That is the crux of the problem - the recidivism rate speaks volumes about how "successful" our current system is... not. And yet, after decades of this level of "success" we still have our "empathists" blaming society and telling us we just need to try harder.

Yes, there is a societal component to this, and we have discussed that at length. It does reach a point, however, after we have done our best, that the criminal himself must be held personally accountable to a much higher degree than they are today. We reach a point with many of them were it is obvious beyond words that they simply do not want to change and never will. Yet we release them back into society, knowing full well they will offend once again. Why? Why do we do this to ourselves? It's insane.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Anyway, enough of that. The adults here are having a discussion. We would love to have you join us. Just please don't derail yet another thread with one of your completely unrelated pet peeves, followed up by your incessant whining when someone politely asks you to refrain from doing so.

But Jeff, whaddabout Benghazi???

This was a thoughtful and interesting discussion until the PARFCONS showed up, as I figured they would. Why not just come out and blame everything on HILLARY!

There's little mystery why PARF is a ghost town these days.

Recidivism is a complex problem, but it is the inevitable result of our current system. It's hard to see how someone entering the maw of it could escape becoming a career criminal, since we so thoroughly strip away their abilities to do anything else with their lives. You say that after we have done our best, we should just give up on--and exterminate--incorrigibles. Where I disagree is the notion that we as a society have done anything close to "our best" at this point.

[Chocaholic]

Would be interesting to check your PARF post count vs mine Corgi. Just sayin’. Jeff is surely close behind. Pot calling kettle black again.

Jeff...you could have simply ignored my comments if you felt they weren’t relevant. But the whole school marm gig makes you look like a bigger ass than you really are...perhaps. My comments were meant with sincerity yet you just couldn’t resist, as usual. That’s what my 3...2...1...was about. Only a matter of time before you lose control again and lash out.

3...2...1...

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I think the optic at play here, and at play all too often in our society, is that we have convinced ourselves that this is a "modern" problem, a result of our decaying society and moral values. I disagree. We have been encumbered with violent, recidivist criminals for the entire history of mankind. I'm not convinced it's any worse (or better) today than it has ever been. I do believe that we have dealt more effectively with them in other times and places. Our current "kid gloves" approach is, I believe, a modern phenomena. One that has become glaringly apparent to be ineffective. I think we all agree on that.

By "disagree" do you mean to say we have not had a deterioration of morality? Do you mean to say that there has not been a deterioration of the family unit, or that the criminal justice issues are not secondary to the destruction of the family unit? Do you mean to say that life has not been devalued in our society, or that life has been devalued, but it has nothing to do with the increase in violent crime.

You talk about prison reform being the answer. I suggest that societal reform and addressing the why they are criminals would maybe be a more efficient use of resources.

You seriously don't think that going from 80% of kids born to two parent families in the 1960s to 80% single mothers now has nothing to do with it?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

But Jeff, whaddabout Benghazi???

This was a thoughtful and interesting discussion until the PARFCONS showed up, as I figured they would. Why not just come out and blame everything on HILLARY!

There's little mystery why PARF is a ghost town these days.

No kidding. While we have had some great discussions over there, it seems all too often they get derailed by the "true believers" in whatever cause or issue dejour has crawled up their asses on any particular day. It just gets old. That's why I seldom even read PARF anymore, much less post on it. Every now and then one of them seems to chew through his rope and wind up over here, though. Oh well.

Originally Posted by madcorgi

Recidivism is a complex problem, but it is the inevitable result of our current system. It's hard to see how someone entering the maw of it could escape becoming a career criminal, since we so thoroughly strip away their abilities to do anything else with their lives. You say that after we have done our best, we should just give up on--and exterminate--incorrigibles. Where I disagree is the notion that we as a society have done anything close to "our best" at this point.

I very much agree - we can, and must, do better. I hope that position has come across over the course of this discussion. I do, however, stand by my other stated position as well - in that there are those who clearly, no matter how much better we do, never accept the help and assimilate. They are fundamentally broken in some way that we simply cannot "fix".

I have the unfortunate pleasure of knowing a young man who is currently in our "system". He happens to be the son of one of my oldest friends, a guy who I grew up with. Same age as my oldest son. They grew up together, from the time they were in diapers.

Well, this kid (I guess I should stop calling him that, he's now 31 years old) is in the state pen for the second time. He will do a minimum of eight years this time. Armed robbery. To support a heroin habit. Geezus H. Christ, how does a kid go so far off the rails? His best friend, my son, is a successful engineer, home owner, married, and about to make me a grandpa (in October). Yet his old friend will not get out until he's at least 36.

I watched it happen. Yet I still cannot tell you how it happened. He didn't grow up on the streets, he does not come from a broken home, his parents have been married as long as my wife and I have - 33 years. The only thing I can say is that heroin found him, found him in a sleepy little high school all the way out in North Bend. Middle class, eastside, yuppie, essentially white bread North Bend. He will never be the same.

He did not go to college, but he got a great start in the fishing fleet out of Dutch Harbor. I guess everyone thought that would "get him away from" the problem out of high school. Turns out it put him right smack in the epicenter of it. Came home with too much money and too much idle time (between trips) and got worse than ever, finally pretty much wiping out his ability to go back to the kind of hard work demanded of his chosen profession.

So, without any source of income and a now raging habit, he turned to crime. Got busted a bunch for petty stuff, family tried all kinds of interventions and help programs - all of that. But it kept escalating until he wound up in Monroe for three years. He emerged from there completely unemployable - a convicted felon. Now what? He wound up working at a soup canning company in Seattle at such a low wage that he eventually went back to the same well. Getting back to his old addiction didn't help either.

What a heartbreaking situation. What will he do when he gets back out this time? It's not hard to guess. He literally has no options. I have to believe he is a fundamentally good kid. Hell, I know he is - I watched him grow up. But he has no options from here. None.

We owe him some, yes, I get that. At a very personal level. I think we can "fix" him, and others like him. I have to believe that. But I also believe there are, and he has actually described to me, those he is now spending time with whom we cannot. He recognizes them. He tells me "there are some very scary people in there...". And I believe him...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Would be interesting to check your PARF post count vs mine Corgi. Just sayin’. Jeff is surely close behind. Pot calling kettle black again.

Jeff...you could have simply ignored my comments if you felt they weren’t relevant. But the whole school marm gig makes you look like a bigger ass than you really are...perhaps. My comments were meant with sincerity yet you just couldn’t resist, as usual. That’s what my 3...2...1...was about. Only a matter of time before you lose control again and lash out.

3...2...1...

"Lash out" - I love it. You use that accusation a lot - along with accusing those who disagree with you of "ranting", when they are not. It's like a shield you hide behind when you are incapable of any sort of a reasoned response.

So, no, I did not "lash out". Nor did I "rant" (before you go there as well) about anything. I simply (and politely) asked you if you could please stick to the topics at hand. I don't think that's unreasonable. Apparently you do, judging from the nature of your playground level responses.

So, again, adults are having a discussion here. Do you have anything to contribute?

Originally Posted by Tobra

By "disagree" do you mean to say we have not had a deterioration of morality? Do you mean to say that there has not been a deterioration of the family unit, or that the criminal justice issues are not secondary to the destruction of the family unit? Do you mean to say that life has not been devalued in our society, or that life has been devalued, but it has nothing to do with the increase in violent crime.

You talk about prison reform being the answer. I suggest that societal reform and addressing the why they are criminals would maybe be a more efficient use of resources.

You seriously don't think that going from 80% of kids born to two parent families in the 1960s to 80% single mothers now has nothing to do with it?

Oh, no, I'm sorry Tobra, I probably wasn't all that clear about what I was trying to say.

Yes, absolutely, I agree with everything you say. I was merely trying to say that we had no shortage of very bad people before this level of societal decay we are now experiencing. So, yes, while agree it's a huge contributing factor, all I was trying to say is that it is not the only contributing factor.

So, yes, indeed - we can "fix" some of this by addressing the societal factors contributing to it. I have acknowledged that many times over the course of this discussion. But I am saying we cannot "fix" all of it in this manner. I'm saying there are people out there that are beyond our help, no matter how hard we try. I'm saying we need to work up the courage to deal with them, decisively, once and for all.

Open for debate, of course, is just how we identify them as such.

[mid wicket]

I note that in New Jersey the Taxpayer is budgeted to pay $281,835 per year to incarcerate a child. (Page D-265 of the FY19BudgetBook).
That sort of money is a symptom of a failed system and should be starting a real debate about alternatives.

I also note that racial disparities plague the youth justice system, where despite similar misbehavior rates a black child is 30 more likely to be detained or committed than a white child.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I think the optic at play here, and at play all too often in our society, is that we have convinced ourselves that this is a "modern" problem, a result of our decaying society and moral values. I disagree. We have been encumbered with violent, recidivist criminals for the entire history of mankind. I'm not convinced it's any worse (or better) today than it has ever been. I do believe that we have dealt more effectively with them in other times and places. Our current "kid gloves" approach is, I believe, a modern phenomena. One that has become glaringly apparent to be ineffective. I think we all agree on that.

I agree that this is an age old problem, but I disagree that we are using kid gloves on criminals. We have moved away from more barbaric methods used in the past (public hangings, floggings, stocks, etc) because (a) they don't work; and (b) they are morally unacceptable in a civilized society. I think we will eventually move away from capital punishment for the same reason--the deterrent effect is minimal, and the costs associated with a state-sponsored system of human extermination are extremely high. As I said earlier, people tend not to consider consequences of their actions when they act out of anger or fear, which is how most violent crimes occur.

But the notion that we use kid gloves on criminals is, I think, incorrect. The criminal justice system is a bear trap--once in, it is almost impossible to get out--and it's a horrible place to be. Too many enter at an early age, get branded as career criminals, and come to consider themselves as such. Small crimes become bigger crimes, and the downward spiral continues, not because we make "the life" too attractive, but because our system pretty much guarantees failure.

Other countries see to have figured this out better than we have. What can we learn from them?

Originally Posted by mid wicket

I note that in New Jersey the Taxpayer is budgeted to pay $281,835 per year to incarcerate a child. (Page D-265 of the FY19BudgetBook).
That sort of money is a symptom of a failed system and should be starting a real debate about alternatives.

I also note that racial disparities plague the youth justice system, where despite similar misbehavior rates a black child is 30 more likely to be detained or committed than a white child.

Agree completely. Minorities make up the vast majority of our incarcerated population because we choose as a society to punish them so much more severely. Compare for instance, the disparity in sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine (prevalent in African American communities) vs. powder cocaine (preferred by whites). Tim Allen went to jail for selling cocaine, yet emerged in a few years to become a big star. Had he been busted for dealing crack, he might well still be in jail.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Open for debate, of course, is just how we identify them as such.

This guy could be at the top of the list

We did have a lot of baddies in the past. But good people were not as reluctant to say anything about it in the past. We have removed the stigma from behavior that has been unacceptable in the past. When you remove the deterrents for adverse acts, you get more of them. Look at Seattle. Would it have even been possible for it to get as bad 50 years ago, even 20 years ago?

It is simply beyond me that anyone could think that the permissive atmosphere secondary to moral decay is not a major driver for this stuff.

Originally Posted by mid wicket

I also note that racial disparities plague the youth justice system, where despite similar misbehavior rates a black child is 30 more likely to be detained or committed than a white child.

I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing.