Miami condo collapse

[dad911]

Originally Posted by javadog

I'd like to get a hi res photo of this area, circled in red.

Looks to me the rebar was near the bottom, and when the ceiling next to it gave way, it pulled the rebar down and out.

[javadog]

That’s what it looks like to me, too. I’d be curious how close it was laying to the bottom of the slab. Also wondering if there was any rebar running the other direction.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Thanks Paul I couldn't copy the link from my phone . As horrible as this is for family/friends/loved ones of the deceased and missing what a mess for the rest of the condo owners . I assume no one is allowed to go in to retrieve anything . Too risky . I also assume at some point in time the structure that is still standing has to be torn down . Does that mean all personal items/cash/documents/legal papers are all lost ?

It's coming down. Not allowed to go back in for valuables or personal items.

With storm looming, demolition of collapsed condo to start

“At the end of the day, that building is too unsafe to let people go back in,” DeSantis said. “I know there’s a lot of people who were able to get out, fortunately, who have things there. We’re very sensitive to that, but I don’t think there’s any way you can let somebody go up in that building given the shape that it’s in now.”

[unclebilly]

Why can’t they go in with drones to collect peoples stuff?

[LJ851]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Why can’t they go in with drones to collect peoples stuff?

A drone with lobster arms ?

[pmax]

Originally Posted by jyl

Hmm, FL law might cap each owner's liability to the value of his or her unit (when? pre-collapse or post-collapse?).

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

"718.119 Limitation of liability.—

(1) The liability of the owner of a unit for common expenses is limited to the amounts for which he or she is assessed for common expenses from time to time in accordance with this chapter, the declaration, and bylaws.

(2) The owner of a unit may be personally liable for the acts or omissions of the association in relation to the use of the common elements, but only to the extent of his or her pro rata share of that liability in the same percentage as his or her interest in the common elements, and then in no case shall that liability exceed the value of his or her unit.

(3) In any legal action in which the association may be exposed to liability in excess of insurance coverage protecting it and the unit owners, the association shall give notice of the exposure within a reasonable time to all unit owners, and they shall have the right to intervene and defend."

Another reason not to own a condo. If the association doesn't carry sufficient insurance, or screws up and lets the insurance lapse, you're exposed to personal liability for the common areas. How many condo unit owners have any idea what insurance the association board carries?
I haven't spent more than 30 seconds reading the FL Condominium statutes though, so . . . Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

In CA, statute protects individual condo owners from liability if the association carries an (absurdly small) amount of insurance. https://findhoalaw.com/civil-code-section-5805-limitation-of-member-liability/

"(a) It is the intent of the Legislature to offer civil liability protection to owners of the separate interests in a common interest development that have common area owned in tenancy-in-common if the association carries a certain level of prescribed insurance that covers a cause of action in tort.

(b) Any cause of action in tort against any owner of a separate interest arising solely by reason of an ownership interest as a tenant-in-common in the common area of a common interest development shall be brought only against the association and not against the individual owners of the separate interests, if both of the insurance requirements in paragraphs (1) and (2) are met:

(1) The association maintained and has in effect for this cause of action, one or more policies of insurance that include coverage for general liability of the association.

(2) The coverage described in paragraph (1) is in the following minimum amounts:

(A) At least two million dollars ($2,000,000) if the common interest development consists of 100 or fewer separate interests.

(B) At least three million dollars ($3,000,000) if the common interest development consists of more than 100 separate interests."

I read a difference where CA's limited to civil but FL any i.e. "any legal action".

[jyl]

Originally Posted by pmax

I read a difference where CA's limited to civil but FL any i.e. "any legal action".

FL statute similarly applies to civil liability, neither CA or FL statutes provide criminal immunity - but very difficult to imagine how a passive owner could possibly have any criminal risk. Arguably FL statute is a little broader as it might apply to contractual liability while CA statute is a tort immunity.

[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by dad911

It's coming down. Not allowed to go back in for valuables or personal items.

With storm looming, demolition of collapsed condo to start

Wow, and no one will be allowed inside to get personal effects, so those people whose condos were in tact, will now lose everything. Well, better to be safe than sorry and at least with a controlled demo they should know how the building will fall and not be left up to nature as to how and where it falls. This has just been such a sad thing to watch. People have lost their lives and other people's lives turned upside down, just a sad situation all around.

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[mocha07]

"It's coming down. Not allowed to go back in for valuables or personal items"

Local company from Baltimore CO. CDI will take it down,implode the remaining structure.

[Seahawk]

I found this article interesting. I do not have any issue with Florida, btw, I just found the perspective interesting.

https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-florida-building-industry-crisis.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab

It had some information I had not read before.

My understanding is that the city came in, the city of Surfside, to kind of evaluate the engineer’s report and give an assessment to the condo board and give their opinion. And when they did that, they kind of said this damage isn’t that big of a deal, and that might have contributed to the delay. So I agree with you that people have different incentives, but do you think the city itself is going to end up bearing any responsibility for what happened here?

I do think that is going to come into effect at some point. I mean, I don’t know who to point the finger at, we’ll see, but clearly the city had a role in all of this too. And if they weren’t relaying that information with the gravity that they should have been relaying that information to the residents, then that’s an issue. If they were downplaying it, that’s going to be an issue. There are things coming out, but we still don’t have the full, full picture quite yet.

[HobieMarty]

The "blame game" begins in 3, 2, 1...

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[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by mocha07

"It's coming down. Not allowed to go back in for valuables or personal items"

Or pets.

[HobieMarty]

I just saw a news report that they could bring the building down as early as today and that they did a search and no pets were in the building.

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[jyl]

Originally Posted by HobieMarty

The "blame game" begins in 3, 2, 1...

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As it should, right? Not acceptable for buildings to collapse like this.

[dad911]

Owners to blame. They fought the special assessment for repairs for years. There was a petition going around to stop repairs again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/us/miami-florida-surfside-collapse.html

Steve Rosenthal, 72, a restaurant advertising executive, went to the gym in the building nearly every day. Afterward, he would stop at the pool, where he could see a crack on a third-floor balcony that he described as “atrocious.” But he called the $135,000 assessment on his condo, a corner unit with double balconies, a “second mortgage.”

“It’s an upscale building, but it’s not the Ritz or the Four Seasons,” he said. “The people that live there aren’t Rockefellers or Rothschilds. We’re upper middle class, I guess, and a lot of us are retired.”

When a neighbor knocked on his door, 705, with a petition against the assessment, Mr. Rosenthal signed it. The first payment was due on July 1.

Smart ones bailed out and sold last year.

IMHO the ones that signed that petition, or opposed repairs should not collect a dime.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by dad911

Owners to blame. They fought the special assessment for repairs for years. There was a petition going around to stop repairs again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/us/miami-florida-surfside-collapse.html



Smart ones bailed out and sold last year.

IMHO the ones that signed that petition, or opposed repairs should not collect a dime.

I’m not sure signing a petition should cause anyone to face consequences of any sort, good or bad.

The owners know far less than the engineers, inspectors, etc. I think the blame should fall squarely on the condo board. If each owner had a vote there would be complete chaos.

[Racerbvd]

https://www.newsbreakapp.com/n/0an2rHcZ?&share_destination_id=NTA4ODk2MDgtMTYyNTQxOTk4NTQ2N A==&s=a7&pd=03RWi8Gl&hl=en_US&lp=v3

[LEAKYSEALS951]

...was just looking at the news for info on demolishing it.

Seeing pictures of the people who died sucks.
Seeing pictures of the children who died really really sucks.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

I’m not sure signing a petition should cause anyone to face consequences of any sort, good or bad.

The owners know far less than the engineers, inspectors, etc. I think the blame should fall squarely on the condo board. If each owner had a vote there would be complete chaos.

They did have a vote. A board cannot authorize that kind of repair/debt without owner's approval.

I suspect that will be revealed with the condo docs & meeting minutes.

[Joe Bob]

They have vacated the sister building. Looks like the City will probably order it to be at least retrofitted/repaired or maybe even demolished before it can be occupied again, if ever.

The HOA Board should have had Errors and Omissions coverage unless Floriduh doesn't require it. I don't think the E&O coverage will be enough to cover the losses.