Miami condo collapse - Page 24

David · David's Garage

It will be interesting to see if the city is sued for not pulling the building's occupancy permit or red tagging the building after the last inspection. There is precedence for the city not being liable but things can change.

https://www.constructionlitigationlawblog.com/2011/12/can_municipalities_and_buildin.html

David · David's Garage

First responder body cam footage:

dad911 · 08-05-2021, 08:54 PM

Found some pics from the engineer's report for our association similar size building, 160 units, 4 stories plus underground parking. Per my prior posts, we had members and directors fight these repairs for nearly 10 years:

These are post-tension cable failures:

I don't have pics of the garage columns, but they were at least as bad as the exterior columns.

Glad I'm out, it's been 8ish years since the renovations were done, I suspect the local officials have this building on their radar again.

HobieMarty · 08-12-2021, 07:36 AM

https://youtu.be/9Hd2U8ELJpY

This is a long video but it shows body cam footage from the first officers to reach the area. Very chilling to say the least.

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javadog · 08-14-2021, 12:01 PM

So, early on in this tragedy you might’ve heard some engineers express reservations about the design of this building and how the related building (Champlain North) wasn’t at risk. The implication was there was something different about the design that made this one a problem, but not the other one.

You might recall me mentioning that the design drawings published by the city of Surfside were a bit of a mess, mainly they were in no particular order. But they were also some revised sheets that were dated about six months after the first set.

The most obvious change was to the pile design but there was another change to the elevation of the pool deck, in relation to the parking deck. As part of that change, some beams were omitted whose main function was to deal with the change in elevation that was originally proposed between the two areas but that also had a secondary purpose, that of carrying loads between columns for things like the planters.

This video analyzes all of that and the guy has done some calculations that indicate that the engineer wasn’t conservative enough on some of his loadings. Somethings were marginal on day one and possibly quite a bit less than marginal after years of deterioration in the concrete and the steel. I don’t want to oversimplify this but I think this guy is on the right track in terms of identifying the main factors that triggered the collapse.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WaZcyq7YsNA

Obviously, further analysis needs to be done and will be done, but it’s not looking good right now for the design of this particular building.

There are things in the video that this guy mentioned in passing, but doesn’t really drill down on and some of those I find pretty bothersome.

And all of that assumes that the building was built the way it was drawn, which is often not the case.

HobieMarty · 08-14-2021, 06:43 PM

I watched a long video from "Building Integrity" and he explained all of the building plans and that there were changes made that left out some beams and he felt that the omission of those beams did in fact make the areas of the above parking deck and a planter area at the pool deck weaker and he was surprised that the structure there lasted as long as it did. It seems through the changes made in the building plans that left out the beams, that building was doomed from the beginning!!!

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HobieMarty · 08-14-2021, 06:44 PM

https://youtu.be/WaZcyq7YsNA

Here is the video I mentioned.

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HobieMarty · 08-14-2021, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog

So, early on in this tragedy you might’ve heard some engineers express reservations about the design of this building and how the related building (Champlain North) wasn’t at risk. The implication was there was something different about the design that made this one a problem, but not the other one.

You might recall me mentioning that the design drawings published by the city of Surfside were a bit of a mess, mainly they were in no particular order. But they were also some revised sheets that were dated about six months after the first set.

The most obvious change was to the pile design but there was another change to the elevation of the pool deck, in relation to the parking deck. As part of that change, some beams were omitted whose main function was to deal with the change in elevation that was originally proposed between the two areas but that also had a secondary purpose, that of carrying loads between columns for things like the planters.

This video analyzes all of that and the guy has done some calculations that indicate that the engineer wasn’t conservative enough on some of his loadings. Somethings were marginal on day one and possibly quite a bit less than marginal after years of deterioration in the concrete and the steel. I don’t want to oversimplify this but I think this guy is on the right track in terms of identifying the main factors that triggered the collapse.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WaZcyq7YsNA

Obviously, further analysis needs to be done and will be done, but it’s not looking good right now for the design of this particular building.

There are things in the video that this guy mentioned in passing, but doesn’t really drill down on and some of those I find pretty bothersome.

And all of that assumes that the building was built the way it was drawn, which is often not the case.

Ooops, sorry, I didn't realize I posted the same link for the same video.
Yes I think Josh from Building Integrity is on the right track also.

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dad911 · 09-28-2021, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t

Agreed.

$150 million....initially...sez the judge...and the math doesn't add up.
Where do the rest come from? Taxpayers?

There is only $50 m of insurance.
Does the other $100 m come from a theoretical sale of the lot?
And the banks are still owed their past-due mortgages, insurance or not.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/09/24/company-associated-with-dubai-billionaire-bids-to-buy-surfside-building-collapse-site-records-show/

$120 Million for the property.

Amazing. Takes me years to get approvals around here, this sale gets fast-tracked.

Crowbob · 09-28-2021, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dad911

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/09/24/company-associated-with-dubai-billionaire-bids-to-buy-surfside-building-collapse-site-records-show/

$120 Million for the property.

Amazing. Takes me years to get approvals around here, this sale gets fast-tracked.

You may or may not, as I really don't know for sure, have $120,000,000 in cash to offer.

Or do you?

Esel Mann · 09-28-2021, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob

You may or may not, as I really don't know for sure, have $120,000,000 in cash to offer.

Or do you?

What he is referring to is money talks above all else. Nothing to do whether he has 120 mil to foolishly spend on the site of whelp they didnt build so guud ikan build bettur.

dad911 · 09-29-2021, 05:16 AM

My point was the judge put a value of 100+ million on the land, weeks after the collapse.

Now someone steps up for 100+ million, no approvals for redevelopment?

Those numbers reflect 200 or more million dollar condos. The old building was worth roughly (130 units at 600k each) 80 million.

HobieMarty · 10-05-2021, 04:18 PM

https://youtu.be/cNKMe4S0A2M

This video shows how Champlain Towers South had issues with pooling water from the roof to the garage, but the last picture in the video is what is the most disturbing to me. The last picture was taken a week ago and shows what is left of the garage floor to be completely under water once again. That alone tells me that the property is doomed to flood time and time again and nothing should ever be built on that piece of property.
Jeff, states that it had not rained in some time also, therefore the water is coming from underground. Wow!!!

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drcoastline · 10-05-2021, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobieMarty

https://youtu.be/cNKMe4S0A2M

This video shows how Champlain Towers South had issues with pooling water from the roof to the garage, but the last picture in the video is what is the most disturbing to me. The last picture was taken a week ago and shows what is left of the garage floor to be completely under water once again. That alone tells me that the property is doomed to flood time and time again and nothing should ever be built on that piece of property.
Jeff, states that it had not rained in some time also, therefore the water is coming from underground. Wow!!!

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I wouldn't put much weight in that video. The guy is a Youtube speculator. There is a lot he says that can be picked apart.

The garage floor is below grade. The water table is probably three feet at best in that location, and the water table would rise and fall with the tide and rain, so the garage floor probably was well into the water table. I wouldn't doubt there were pumps to evacuate rain water. When the tons of concrete fell onto the garage floor it no doubt fractured the concrete slab. This would allow the water from below to seep into this area. Maybe this photo was taken at high tide? It may be dry at low tide.

HobieMarty · 10-05-2021, 06:29 PM

It has been stated by a former maintenance worker that there had been a problem with water intrusion in that garage, especially at high tide or king tide. It was also stated by the individual that they were going through pumps quite often as they couldn't keep up and would have to be replaced often. In the early pictures of the garage after the collapse, the first responders there are standing and working in at least ankle deep water. Just saying, it seems that the water intrusion from underground had been going on for quite some time and it is still happening.
I wish someone would set up a camera to see if the water seeps away and comes back to see exactly where the water is coming in.

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drcoastline · 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobieMarty

It has been stated by a former maintenance worker that there had been a problem with water intrusion in that garage, especially at high tide or king tide. It was also stated by the individual that they were going through pumps quite often as they couldn't keep up and would have to be replaced often. In the early pictures of the garage after the collapse, the first responders there are standing and working in at least ankle deep water. Just saying, it seems that the water intrusion from underground had been going on for quite some time and it is still happening.
I wish someone would set up a camera to see if the water seeps away and comes back to see exactly where the water is coming in.

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Let me put it this way. In your previous post you stated this "last picture in the video is what is the most disturbing to me. The last picture was taken a week ago and shows what is left of the garage floor to be completely under water once again. That alone tells me that the property is doomed to flood time and time again and nothing should ever be built on that piece of property."

This building had on going maintenance issues that are well documented and clealry structural issues as a result of on going issues some of which could go back to original construction.

But, this property isn't subject any more or any less to the water table and water intrusion from below ground then the two buildings on either side of it the other Champlain buildings or any other building on that island.

On my island even single family homes have pilings driven through the sand forty feet down to the bedrock. Then the foting cage is constructed and attached then concrete is poured to create the footer, then the foundation erected on that, then the structure on that. They are not just sitting on the sand. I am going to assume this building was built at least to that standard of construction. Did this particular building have insufficeint pilings (it wouldn't be the first time) or pilings driven in the wrong location so portions were not properly supported?(also wouldn't be the first time) this may have caused settling in places that cracked the slab causing the ground water to infiltrate the parking garage and that may be why there was standing water in the garage that came and went even without rain or why it didn't drain during a storm. I am going to assume the slab and garage walls were a monolithic pour. If so this essentially ceates a swiming pool. No water can get in and no water can get out. It makes sense it can't get out. But coming in (unless through the drive) means it is damaged.

I am not going to go back through the thread but I seem to recall they did identify some under size supports in the garage at or near the point of initial collapse and there was some settling and maybe a fractured or damaged support and this was also a location which water was seen pooling. Remeber water seeks it's own level and will run to the lowest spot. Water was also pooling on the pool deck above this location. These would indicate a low spot. Was this support improperly supported below grade? had the support settled or been damaged? Did this crack the garage slab allowing ground water in? Was water from above running through the building and down this area? in your video the guy references the "11's". All the rooms with 11- 111, 211, 611 in the video all had water issues. That would also indicate water was running to this location. The 11's line up with the intial collpase location.

The roof- this guy seems to want to make a case there weren't roof drains? I would find that hard to believe. But a forty year old building would have had a lot of debris over that time running into the drains. Were they clogged? What roof was on this building? Stones? At forty years old not unreasonable to think it may have had two or even three roofs. Were the drains still of sufficent size or did the roofs roll the roofing into drain reducing their size? Did tar or muck fall into any drains causing an area to trap debris? Going back to the 11"s was the drain in this area an issue? Was that why they had problems? Was this drain altered maybe it was damaged or came apart inside the building?

That is the long winded version of it's not the property/location it is something with the building and water was running right to this location it has nothing to do with ground water inflitration or flooding.

HobieMarty · 10-06-2021, 03:07 AM

Well alrighty then...

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drcoastline · 10-06-2021, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobieMarty

Well alrighty then...

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I will say this regarding the ground water. You mentioned they were going through pumps. Again I think a clear indication of ground water coming in which further indicates a damaged slab. It is possible (likely) that during stoms when the power goes out and the pumps go off. The rising flood waters are creating hydrostaic pressure on the slab. Again, assuming a monolithic pour the garage is going to try and float. Obvisouly it can't float wih a building sitting on top of it so eventually something fails which would be the concrete but would remain held togetehr by the rebar. We would expect the water infiltration to get worse as time went on after each storm and rise of tide. as the cracks got larger pumps running more often, larger pumps needed to keep up with the amount of water.

Also regarding the firemen in ankle deep awater. Remember the intial collpase which collapsed the garage ceiling occured about five minutes before the building collapsed. ruptured a water line that appears to be 4" or 6" round. This can be seen in this video

GH85Carrera · GH85Carrera's Garage

If bridges can be built over the Florida Keys, I am sure a building can be built on the spot where the condo collapsed. How it is done is beyond my knowledge. And I have no idea what it will cost to build on that spot, but the old mantra of location, location, location is valid everywhere. People will want to live there. Some engineer and builder will figure it out.

I will not be one of the tenants.

HobieMarty · 10-06-2021, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcoastline

I will say this regarding the ground water. You mentioned they were going through pumps. Again I think a clear indication of ground water coming in which further indicates a damaged slab. It is possible (likely) that during stoms when the power goes out and the pumps go off. The rising flood waters are creating hydrostaic pressure on the slab. Again, assuming a monolithic pour the garage is going to try and float. Obvisouly it can't float wih a building sitting on top of it so eventually something fails which would be the concrete but would remain held togetehr by the rebar. We would expect the water infiltration to get worse as time went on after each storm and rise of tide. as the cracks got larger pumps running more often, larger pumps needed to keep up with the amount of water.

Also regarding the firemen in ankle deep awater. Remember the intial collpase which collapsed the garage ceiling occured about five minutes before the building collapsed. ruptured a water line that appears to be 4" or 6" round. This can be seen in this video

Sounds like you know quite a bit about this type of thing, I am just a casual observer. Maybe you could make some videos or reports to support your hypothesis.
I would still like to see someone set up a time lapse of the area now to see where the water is seeping in at.
Also I would be interested to know exactly if the surrounding buildings ever experience water intrusion the likes of which Champlain South experienced.

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