Miami condo collapse

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by dad911

In addition to lives lost, 130 units, 600k+ each, plus common space, that was an 80+ million dollar building.

After 40 years, I would think management/maintenance played a bigger part than architect/builder.

No doubt. Guaranteed there is a management company in place for routine maintenance. Large expenditures would need to go in front of the board maybe even the owners to be voted on. Probably need a special assessment to pay for large repairs. All the owners will moan and groan about the assessment so it gets put off because none of the board wants to deal with the complainers.

So maintenance gets defered.

[greglepore]

You can't build on plastic sand in a corrosive environment. Just look at the outer banks, all that tall **** falls into the ocean eventually. I don't wish it, but I don't care to insure it with my tax dollars.

[thor66]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

My very limited understanding is that high rise buildings are supposed to have multiple fail safes, and not collapse like that even if one of the supporting features fails.

In the Oklahoma City bombing a massive explosion ripped the entire front side and much of the structure off the building. No building is designed to withstand a terrorist with a huge bomb parked just feet from the front of the building.

Imagine that high rise in San Fransisco that is leaning several inches. That has to be a scary place to live, especially now.

that's Millennium Tower at 301 Mission Street- sunk 18 inches and tilted 14 inches overall

I didn't check but I don't think it is built on fill (like most of North Beach). The Miami area is limestone and is getting salt water intrusion as sea levels rise, but I dunno if that figures into this collapse.

The N. bldg. in the center collapses first in the videos, and 'pulls' the other bldg. down.

There has been talk about stuff on the roof, and lots of other things. We'll know more when a forensics team of structural engineers gets in there.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by thor66

I didn't check but I don't think it is built on fill (like most of North Beach).

Those are two entirely different seismic areas.
North Beach is higher up and on the hills. Columbus Ave up.

Someone here would know the logistics better...

[TimT]

Originally Posted by john70t

Modern concrete is lightweight and porous allowing for moisture and salt penetration
-It is usually not sealed externally afterwards, especially on top
-Rebar is often undersized, not welded, is round and does not grip, and doesn't have an anti-oxidant composition such as brass or chromium
-Designers love to create flamboyant looks such as large unsupported balconies and complete walls of uninterrupted glass. (cring)

I wonder what building practices can be upgraded to prevent spalling, such as rubberizers or plasticizers or natural epoxies in the mix which would prevent air penetration.

You should just stop... Its quite apparent that your knowledge of building design and practices and materials usage is limited.

This is a great totally uniformed and untrue statement:

Rebar is often undersized, not welded, is round and does not grip, and doesn't have an anti-oxidant composition such as brass or chromium

I'll just use Wiki... as I can't be bothered to open my ACI or ASTM references..

A Primer on Rebar

I can go on about fiber reinforced concrete, various admixtures, plasticizers, retarders.. waterproofing agents etc..

This building was designed following the building codes that existed then..

Whether it was built that way is questionable.... Of course contractors buy materials that meet standards, for a little as they can..

Then there is actually building the structure to plan and spec..

I doubt there was any third party testing and oversight all those years ago..

And I bet there has been zero preventive maintenance , or even inspections since that building got its CO

[dad911]

Looks like there are 3 sister/similar buildings. #1 below is the one that collapsed.



There were also lawsuit(s) in prior years against management of the building that collapsed, for not repairing structural exterior issues.

One condo owner sued the unit association for failing to fix the cracks in the outside wall of her unit in 2015, according to a lawsuit filed in Miami-Dade County. The condo owner, who could not be reached for comment, said the cracks led to water damage that cost $15,000. The court documents noted that because the cracks were a structural issue the building association was liable for the expense.

The condo owner had previously filed a lawsuit against the building association in 2001 due to a similar issue. The two sides settled outside of court, but that kind of cracking is described as “of interest” in the county’s Structural Recertification Form.

[URY914]

"The condo owner, who could not be reached for comment..."

There's a good reason for that.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by TimT

You should just stop... Its quite apparent that your knowledge of building design and practices and materials usage is limited.

This is a great totally uniformed and untrue statement:



I'll just use Wiki... as I can't be bothered to open my ACI or ASTM references..

A Primer on Rebar

I can go on about fiber reinforced concrete, various admixtures, plasticizers, retarders.. waterproofing agents etc..

This building was designed following the building codes that existed then..

Okay then.
I will defer to the experts who built that thing and continue to think.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by dad911

There were also lawsuit(s) in prior years against management of the building that collapsed, for not repairing structural exterior issues.

Usually the best condo association is self-vested IMHO:
-Meaning the owners themselves make the long-term decisions and dues are saved for future maintenance.
-Meaning some international corp won't take all the money fold and run.
-This can still fail miserably, as I have found out.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

One thing I've seen, is how many similar collapses have occurred worldwide using google image search.

It doesn't seem to get covered much in US Kardashian / partisan news networks, but this seems more common than expected.

All eyes will be on foundation settling/sinking in the months to come.

edit- IIRC- In "Why buildings fall down" engineers/ designers were held personally responsible eye-for-eye style for structural failure in earlier days/medieval times. I need to go re- research this.

double edit- I would not stand foot in Burj Khalifa, even for a second. Same for the highrises that are measurably settling where ever they are.

Single story Ranch style living has it's advantages.

[nota]

8777 Collins Ave PENTHOUSE A, Miami Beach, FL 33154

Sold: $2,880,000Sold on 05/11/21

not the best investment current value 0.00

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8777-Collins-Ave-PENTHOUSE-A-Miami-Beach-FL-33154/2074008564_zpid/

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex

New York Times
Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex

A consultant in 2018 urged the managers to repair cracked columns and crumbling concrete. The work was finally about to get underway when the building collapsed.

By Mike Baker and Anjali Singhvi
June 26, 2021, 5:30 a.m. ET

Three years before the deadly collapse of the Champlain Towers South condominium complex near Miami, a consultant found alarming evidence of “major structural damage” to the concrete slab below the pool deck and “abundant” cracking and crumbling of the columns, beams and walls of the parking garage under the 13-story building.

The engineer’s report helped shape plans for a multimillion-dollar repair project that was set to get underway soon — more than two and a half years after the building managers were warned — but the building suffered a catastrophic collapse in the middle of the night on Thursday, trapping sleeping residents in a massive heap of debris.

The complex’s management association had disclosed some of the problems in the wake of the collapse, but it was not until city officials released the 2018 report late Friday that the full nature of the concrete and rebar damage — most of it probably caused by years of exposure to the corrosive salt air along the South Florida coast — became chillingly apparent.

“Though some of this damage is minor, most of the concrete deterioration needs to be repaired in a timely fashion,” the consultant, Frank Morabito, wrote about damage near the base of the structure as part of his October 2018 report on the 40-year-old building in Surfside, Fla. He gave no indication that the structure was at risk of collapse, though he noted that the needed repairs would be aimed at “maintaining the structural integrity” of the building and its 136 units.

Kenneth S. Direktor, a lawyer who represents the resident-led association that operates the building, said this week that the repairs had been set to commence, based on extensive plans drawn up this year.

“They were just about to get started on it,” he said in an interview, adding that the process would have been handled much differently if owners had had any indication that the corrosion and crumbling — mild instances of which are relatively common in many coastal buildings — were a serious threat.

But Eliana Salzhauer, a Surfside commissioner, said that while the cause of the collapse was unknown, it appeared to her that the problems identified by the engineer in the 2018 report could have contributed to the structural failure.

“It’s upsetting to see these documents because the condo board was clearly made aware that there were issues,” Ms. Salzhauer said. “And it seems from the documents that the issues were not addressed.”

Investigators have yet to identify the cause and are still awaiting full access to a site where rescue crews have been urgently sifting through an unstable pile of debris for possible survivors. Experts said that the process of assessing possible failure scenarios could take months, involving a review of individual building components that may now be buried in debris, the testing of concrete to assess its integrity and an examination of the earth below to see if a sinkhole or other subsidence was responsible for the collapse.

The building was just entering a recertification process — a requirement for such 40-year-old structures that have endured the punishment of coastal Florida’s hurricanes, storm surges and the corrosive salty air that can penetrate concrete and rust the rebar and steel beams inside.



The 40-year requirement was put in place after a previous building collapse in Miami, in 1974.

Mr. Morabito, who declined to comment this week, wrote in the 2018 report that the goal of his study was to understand and document the extent of structural issues that would require repair or remediation.

“These documents will enable the Condominium Board to adequately assess the overall condition of the building, notify tenants on how they may be affected, and provide a safe and functional infrastructure for the future,” he wrote.

At the ground level of the complex, vehicles can drive in next to a pool deck where residents would lounge in the sun. Mr. Morabito in 2018 said that the waterproofing below the pool deck and entrance drive was failing, “causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas.”

The report added that “failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially.” The problem, he said, was that the waterproofing was laid flat, not sloped in a way that would allow water to run off, an issue he called a “major error” in the original design. The replacement would be “extremely expensive,” he warned, and cause a major disturbance to residents.

In the parking garage, which largely sits at the bottom level of the building, part of it under the pool deck, Mr. Morabito said that there were signs of distress and fatigue.

“Abundant cracking and spalling of varying degrees was observed in the concrete columns, beams, and walls,” Mr. Morabito wrote. He included photos of cracks in the columns of the parking garage as well as concrete crumbling — a process engineers refer to as “spalling” — that exposed steel reinforcements on the garage deck.



Mr. Morabito noted that previous attempts to patch the concrete with epoxy were failing, resulting in more cracking and spalling. In one such spot, he said, “new cracks were radiating from the originally repaired cracks.”

The report also identified a host of other problems: Residents were complaining of water coming through their windows and balcony doors, and the concrete on many balconies also was deteriorating.

After watching a surveillance video showing the collapse of the building, Evan Bentz, a professor at the University of Toronto and an expert in structural concrete, said that whatever had caused the collapse would have to have been somewhere near the bottom of the building, perhaps around the parking level. Though he had not seen the 2018 report at the time, he said such a collapse could have several possible explanations, including a design mistake, a materials problem, a construction error or a maintenance error.

“I’d be surprised if there was just one cause,” Mr. Bentz said. “There would have to be multiple causes for it to have fallen like that.”

There have been other concerns raised about the complex over the years. One resident filed a lawsuit in 2015 alleging that poor maintenance had allowed water to enter her unit through cracks in an outside wall. Some residents expressed concern that blasting during construction at a neighboring complex had rattled their units.

Researchers analyzing space-based radar had also identified land subsidence at the property in the 1990s. The 2020 study found subsidence in other areas of the region, but on the east side of the barrier island where Surfside is, the condo complex was the only place where the issue was detected.

Proposed in the late 1970s, the Champlain Towers South project had its architectural and structural designs completed in 1979, according to records. At the time, people were flocking to live and play in South Florida, and developers were looking to build larger complexes that could put people right at the beachfront.

A nearly identical companion property — Champlain Towers North — was built the same year, a few hundred yards up the beach. It was not immediately clear whether any of the issues raised by the engineer in the south project had also been found in the other buildings.

Surfside’s mayor, Charles W. Burkett, said on Friday that he was worried about the stability of the north building but did not feel “philosophically comfortable” ordering people to evacuate.

“I can’t tell you, I can’t assure you, that the building is safe,” he said at a town commission meeting.

The collapse has stunned industry experts in the Miami area, including John Pistorino, a consulting engineer who designed the 40-year reinspection program when he was consulting for the county in the 1970s.

He touted other regulations that have come since, including requirements that tall buildings have an independent engineer verify that construction is going according to plans.

Mr. Pistorino did not want to speculate on the cause of the collapse. But he said that while some buildings in the region have had quality problems, any serious deficiencies were unusual, and were typically easy to detect by way of glaring cracks or other visible problems.

“This is so out of the norm,” Mr. Pistorino said. “This is something I cannot fathom or understand what happened.”

[javadog]

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf?sfvrsn=882a1194_2

[GH85Carrera]

In the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing and collapse they recued the final living person on the same evening as the bombing. After that is was just recovery. I really doubt they will find any more people alive. I hope they do, but the odds are dropping fast.

I hope they find some people criminally negligent in the collapse. That will not help the people affected, but it will send a message to all the other building owners, maintain the building or sell it to someone that will.

[Seahawk]

The report was delivered in October, 2018, I read the whole report.

It is extremely well written and pulls zero punches.

Originally Posted by javadog

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf?sfvrsn=882a1194_2

[rfuerst911sc]

Lawsuits will be ongoing for 20 years on this one . So issues were found in 2018 , does anyone know what the laws are in regards to responding in a reasonable amount of time ? Sounds like they were going to start this year . So issues found three years ago . Then a world wide pandemic for a year . So is the " we are fixing it this year " a reasonable time frame ? I know for those deceased/missing and the families of the answer is no . But lawyers will argue it is . What do you think ?

[Racerbvd]

https://www.newsbreakapp.com/n/0afIH9Pt?&share_destination_id=NTA4ODk2MDgtMTYyNDcyNDQzNTQ3O Q==&s=a7&pd=03RWi8Gl&hl=en_US&lp=v3

[ckissick]

Here's my guess as to how it failed.

I'm assuming the floors were post-tensioned slabs. During construction, you lay out the rebar, then use hydraulic rams to pull them tight, like guitar strings. Then you pour the concrete and let it set. Once set, you release the tension on the rebar. It tries to relax, but transfers the stress to the concrete, making it tight and rigid.

Now, let corrosion begin. If the rebar rusts, it loses its grip on the concrete and the whole thing loosens and weakens. The slab is no longer able to hold the load and fails.

[jyl]

I have never owned a condo but watching friends who’ve done so has convinced me to never, ever do so.

One friend just bought a condo in Portland because house prices/bidding were too hot. It is an attractive, not too old, upscale building in a prime area of town not far from downtown.

He’s owned a condo before so he knew what to do. Reviewed all the minutes and notes from the condo association meetings, read all the engineering reports and bids, read the emails between board members, interviewed the condo association board president and others. Learned that the building has deferred and underfunded maintenance (don’t they all) that will be addressed with substantial assessments (he expects to get assessed $30K for his 1bdrm unit) and then steep annual increases in dues for years.

He bought it anyway.

I told him he was crazy. The price was only about $50K less than what he’d pay for a modest 2 bdrm bungalow type house in a modest neighborhood. Sure, the typical house in that price range will need work, potentially $20K right away and $100K over time, but you can control the work, make sure it’s done right, DIY some of it. You get 1.5X the square footage compared to the condo, plus yard and garage. The house isn’t a gem, it’s typical 1930s construction, but houses were built soundly back then, while the condo certainly isn’t built to last 100 years. You can expand, add-on, finish the basement or attic, build an ADU. The house, with seismic bolting, will survive the “Big One” and still be habitable despite some damage, while the condo has a pretty good chance of being red-tagged and a total loss. And you own the LAND, and that is what is appreciating. The way Portland has eff’d up its zoning, you can even demolish the bungalow and replace it with a 30’ tall, 5000 sf four-bedroom apartment building built 5’ from the lot line, so that your neighbors will never see sun again.

He just couldn’t cope with having to pay $50K over asking for a $450K asking house, felt like he wasn’t getting a “good deal”. I told him he was being penny wise and pound foolish. In fact, I told him if he didn’t want to get involved in over-asking bids, to move up to the $650-700K range where the market is more sane and you can be closer to downtown - if that’s actually a plus anymore. He can afford it, he is getting a mortgage because rates are so low but he could actually pay cash.

Well, I think I was right but everyone looks at things differently.

[Noah930]

Holy cow. Now there's a fire of uncertain origin going on somewhere in the pile of rubble?