Miami condo collapse

[dad911]

Hundreds or thousands of gallons of gas from the lower level cars/parking.

[Scott Douglas]

I think I heard on the news last night that there were numerous fires in the pile and were expected with this kind of collapse. Not good if you're trying to remain alive in all that.

Personally, I'll be very surprised if they find anyone still alive in that mess.

[pmax]

Ugh ...

[dad911]

Originally Posted by ckissick

Here's my guess as to how it failed.

I'm assuming the floors were post-tensioned slabs. During construction, you lay out the rebar, then use hydraulic rams to pull them tight, like guitar strings. Then you pour the concrete and let it set. Once set, you release the tension on the rebar. It tries to relax, but transfers the stress to the concrete, making it tight and rigid.

Now, let corrosion begin. If the rebar rusts, it loses its grip on the concrete and the whole thing loosens and weakens. The slab is no longer able to hold the load and fails.

The complex we were an owner at used cables in addition to rebar. It was my understanding that in addition to the rebar, there were tubes from side to side for the cables. After the concrete cured, the cables were tensioned to a very high force.

This was my balcony after the tile was removed. You can see where rebar rusts, it expands popping cement and tile. You can also see where previous management, prior to my purchase) decided to caulk the cracks with in-house maintenance rather than do a proper repair.



I was part of a very vocal group during the few years prior to this project, demanding work done by properly per engineering reports. While our board of directors berated us they at first claimed it was all 'cosmetic' Then spent two years trying to find an engineer that would back them up. The final engineer actually deemed my balcony as uninhabitable, removed and replaced the whole thing.

The final cost was over 8 million, including balcony repair, waterproofing and refinishing the exteriors, and replacing and repairing many of the columns in the lower level parking.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

I think I heard on the news last night that there were numerous fires in the pile and were expected with this kind of collapse. Not good if you're trying to remain alive in all that.

Personally, I'll be very surprised if they find anyone still alive in that mess.

Fires in a collapse are very normal. As a matter of fact I was surprised they weren't any from the get go.

Most of tbe time they are electrical based, then add natural gas to the mix.


.

[URY914]

Originally Posted by ckissick

Here's my guess as to how it failed.

I'm assuming the floors were post-tensioned slabs. During construction, you lay out the rebar, then use hydraulic rams to pull them tight, like guitar strings. Then you pour the concrete and let it set. Once set, you release the tension on the rebar. It tries to relax, but transfers the stress to the concrete, making it tight and rigid.

Now, let corrosion begin. If the rebar rusts, it loses its grip on the concrete and the whole thing loosens and weakens. The slab is no longer able to hold the load and fails.

The cables come with a plastic sleeve around them. The cables are laid in the formwork and then the concrete in placed. The cables are tensioned AFTER the concrete is placed. They are pulled a few days after the concrete is placed. I worked on 3 post tension projects when I was younger. I actually was on the crew that pulled the cable with the jacks. It is very important to grout the ends of the cables at the slab or beam ends. It seals the cables.

[thor66]

The cables are tensioned while the concrete is uncured but already poured??

[nota]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Holy cow. Now there's a fire of uncertain origin going on somewhere in the pile of rubble?

fireworks or firearms or who knows what in cars also inc gas+ batterys
Li cars can have lots of engery

but the burning has been flaring up and watered down only to happen again
several times a day

[URY914]

Originally Posted by thor66

The cables are tensioned while the concrete is uncured but already poured??

We would have a deck pour on Tuesday and pull the cables on Friday. We'd have to wait until we get a 3-day break on the cylinders. If the cylinder breaks don't came up to the required PSI, we'd wait other day to pull.

[thor66]

thx

sounds like they had other problems tho

[edgemar]

What are the odds the sister buildings will be razed?

[The Synergizer]

This is like a commercial airline crash. Many lives lost, all at once. Rare, but will happen. And probably will happen again somewhere. Although, does it, or has it really happened anywhere in the world on this scale excluding war?

No... They will bring in fleets of "experts" though.

Originally Posted by edgemar

What are the odds the sister buildings will be razed?

[cjh]

And Lawyers...........

[David]

https://www.insider.com/woman-was-on-phone-to-husband-as-miami-block-collapsed-2021-6


A woman stood on the balcony of her fourth-floor apartment as the Florida condominium collapsed told her husband on the phone that she could see the pool "caving in" seconds before the line went dead, Sky News reported.

Cassie Straton was speaking to her husband, Michael, from their balcony on the south side of the Champlain Towers when she noticed the building started shaking in the early hours of Thursday, her older sister Ashely Dean said.

"Suddenly she says, 'honey, the pool is caving in. The pool is sinking to the ground,'" Dean said, according to Sky News.

"He said, 'what are you talking about?' And she says, 'the ground is shaking, everything's shaking' and then she screamed a blood-curdling scream and the line went dead," Dean added.

[URY914]

Another body has been found.

"Miami-Dade Mayor Daniella Levine Cava announced the heightened toll at an evening news briefing, saying the identification of three bodies had dropped the number of unaccounted for down to 156. She said crews also discovered other unspecified human remains."

How are they coming up with 156? Do people sign in when people enter the building or something?

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by edgemar

What are the odds the sister buildings will be razed?

"Any property in the county that was built four decades or longer ago is required to complete the inspection process within a few years of that anniversary to certify “each building or structure is structurally and electrically safe for the specified use for continued occupancy,” according to the county’s notice sent to property owners."

If the 40-year inspection hasn't been conducted, I'll bet it will be very soon.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by cjh

And Lawyers...........

The lawyers will be delighted.

They'll be sitting around in a bar saying "OK, which side do you want to be on? You say this, then I'll say that, so we can drag it out for years while being on full pay."

[Salty Springs]

Originally Posted by dad911

The complex we were an owner at used cables in addition to rebar. It was my understanding that in addition to the rebar, there were tubes from side to side for the cables. After the concrete cured, the cables were tensioned to a very high force.

This was my balcony after the tile was removed. You can see where rebar rusts, it expands popping cement and tile. You can also see where previous management, prior to my purchase) decided to caulk the cracks with in-house maintenance rather than do a proper repair.



I was part of a very vocal group during the few years prior to this project, demanding work done by properly per engineering reports. While our board of directors berated us they at first claimed it was all 'cosmetic' Then spent two years trying to find an engineer that would back them up. The final engineer actually deemed my balcony as uninhabitable, removed and replaced the whole thing.

The final cost was over 8 million, including balcony repair, waterproofing and refinishing the exteriors, and replacing and repairing many of the columns in the lower level parking.

We have owned a ground floor condo in a 4 story building in Cocoa Beach Fl. for over 20 years. It was built in 1975. I don't believe post tension was used at that time. All floors and interior walls are poured concrete (not the roof). We do have balconies but they are individual and not the huge wrap around balconies as pictured. Our HOA board is very proactive about concrete deterioration and we have replaced walkways and balconies and have an annual engineered inspection. I've noticed that the balconies on the subject condo are tiled. Our engineers (many years ago) determined that tile was the main cause of the problem. Thus there is no tile or even welcome mats allowed on the balconies or even ground floor patios or walkways. Also, most building codes do not allow ground floors units anymore, thus most condos are built on posts and piers with huge openings for ground floor and even underground parking. That could prove to be part of the problem!

[Salty Springs]

Originally Posted by dad911

Looks like there are 3 sister/similar buildings. #1 below is the one that collapsed.



There were also lawsuit(s) in prior years against management of the building that collapsed, for not repairing structural exterior issues.

Wow. Those three are identical! I'd bet if your real ballsy you could get a great deal in buildings 2 or 3.
Better hurry though, they'll probably be condemned shortly.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Salty Springs

........ Also, most building codes do not allow ground floors units anymore, thus most condos are built on posts and piers with huge openings for ground floor and even underground parking. That could prove to be part of the problem!

Agree. The images of the cars (see post 6) piled on top of each other have bothered me since the beginning. Pure conjecture at this point, but I find the the dialog in post 148 about the pool failing, combined with engineers report, and car images lead me to think that the pool failure, perhaps water pressure, or floating cars banging into posts, caused the already weakened posts to fail.

Originally Posted by Salty Springs

.......Our engineers (many years ago) determined that tile was the main cause of the problem. Thus there is no tile or even welcome mats allowed on the balconies .....

Same when our building was redone. All of the balconies were coated with a thick membrane.