It doesn't relieve charges of negligence by the armorer and produce(s) no matter how the live ammo got on set or who loaded the gun with it.

The armorer and the producer's jobs were to make sure that can't happen.

It would be exceedingly unfortunate if this proves to be how this is resolved. Because, if it is, this will only happen again. And again. As it apparently has already on other sets.

The only way to bring this to an end (as infrequently as it does happen) is for your industry to adopt the same rules as are universally accepted throughout the entire firearms world, from military to police to hunters to target shooters.

Alas, at least from what I've gleaned on this thread, it appears there is little chance of that ever happening. I believe I've now read every excuse in the book as to why doing so is not feasible, why those rules can't apply on the set, and on and on. The habits I have seen justified over the course of this thread would be absolutely unacceptable on any firing range in the world. Your industry really needs to consider that. But it's clear to me now that they won't.

Lawsuit, incoming:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/halyna-hutchins-husband-preparing-wrongful-death-lawsuit-report

Why was there anything in the cylinder if it was just practice? The armorer admitted to loading what she thought were dummy rounds. Should have been empty for it to have been declared cold if I understand the terminology.

Radio today said one of the prop people shot a blank at their foot in a ND.

Not that it helps this situation , but just saw an interview with the Rock . He said all films he will be involved in going forward will never have real guns on set . He said they will use rubber props . It's a move in the right direction .

Perhaps we should compare the accidental shooting incident rates on movie sets to the accidental discharge/incident rates at shooting ranges......

Let's try a google search...

https://www.google.com/search?q=accidental+shooting+at+gun+range&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

About 12.9 million hits. The first page even lists police deputies unfortunately being shot at a training facility.

Seems to me the movie industry understands their working environment and has an extremely robust safety focus. Yes, sometimes shart happens, but that applies everywhere.

In the US, we have typically 5,000 or so work-place deaths a year. Each one a tragedy for anyone directly impacted.

I wonder how many workplace deaths have occured since the incident under discussion?

I was going to mention that in over 100 years of film making and millions of rounds fired there have been 3 firearms deaths. One due to horseplay and 2 due to inexperienced Armorers (or lack of) on distant locations.

Imagine if you went to a shooting range and you weren't allowed to posses real, live ammo. You had to have a safety meeting before any firing of blank ammo, your gun had to be inspected and all loading of blanks was done by a licensed gunsmith. You fire your gun and immediately hand it back to the gunsmith and he clears it. Not much of a "firearms experience" is it?

You have to realize, there is no LIVE AMMO allowed at a studio, near a set, on a set, on a prop truck, NOWHERE. Nada, zilch, don't even think about it.

You have 2 people handling the weapon. The Armorer and the actor. That's it. 99.9% of the time there is nothing in the chamber or cylinder. Of that 99.9%, 75% of the time it is not even a real gun, most likely a rubber replica.

They need to subpoena anyone who claimed that there was recreational shooting going on after hours. Find out who brought the ammo, who gave them access to productions weapons. Someone will sing and point the finger.

"And when something like this happens of this magnitude, [that is] this heartbreaking, I think the most prudent thing and the smartest thing to do is just pause for a second..."

And then he immediately has a knee jerk reaction.

Yep. Not a deep thinker, that one.

You are conflating "rate" with "incidents".

To gain an understanding of "rate", we would have to know how many rounds have been fired at gun ranges, and by how many people, over this period of time. We would also have to have some understanding of what constitutes a "gun range". As we can observe in every other aspect of our lives, there are "gun ranges" and there are "gun ranges", with widely varying degrees of safety enforcement and oversight. In other words, do we include illegal street racing deaths when examining motorsports safety?

I think it's fair to say that accidental shooting deaths at well run, well supervised ranges at which members and customers are actually required to follow the widely accepted, universal gun safety protocols under discussion, are likely pretty darn minimal.

Let me ask you this - if the armorer, the AD, or anyone at all for that matter handed you what you know to be a real gun and told you "don't worry, it's not loaded", would you hold it to your own head, cock it, and pull the trigger? Without checking it first?

First off, it would only be the Armorer, and second he would show me with an open breech or cylinder and a flashlight that it was either completely empty or if it was dummy rounds, he would shake each one to hear the rattle of the BB as he placed them in the gun. If I wasn't satisfied, he would let me inspect the gun further under HIS supervision. Then and only then would we proceed with the scene.

None of these precautions were followed on set, probably the reason for the previous accidental discharges (which would and should have been a red flag). There is no reason for the guns to have been left unattended nor the blanks and dummy rounds.

As far as the live ammo, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever.

I won't attempt to calculate how many shootings you would classify as "pretty darn minimal". I would, however, accept that Craigster59's notation that only 3 individuals have died from firearms in 100 years of film making is a miraculous achievement, if true, and I'm assuming it is.

Do you believe that in 100 years there have been more or less than 3 firearms deaths at all of the ranges across the country you would classify as a properly operated gun range.

Let's eliminate the numbers attributable to "street racing"

In other words, your short answer is "no".

I would concede that having someone else (who is holding the gun) demonstrate to you, with you right there watching as he checks every chamber, is equivalent to you doing it yourself. You are, in affect, "checking it yourself" if the two of you are doing this. I would be satisfied with that.

I would still not, however, hold it up to my own head and pull the trigger. I would never even do that with a gun that I had just checked for myself. Would you?

This scenario you just described represents a fundamental change from the procedures as you and others have described them up until this point. Nowhere else have you (nor anyone else) outlined a procedure such as this wherein the armorer and the "artist" check the gun together. Quite the contrary, actually - you (and others as well, I believe) have told us a number of times that the "artist" is not allowed to futz with the firearm, and is simply handed a "cold gun", explicitly trusting the armorer to have ensured that is is, in fact, a "cold gun". You have placed 100% of this responsibility on the armorer, never once even implying the shared responsibility you outline here. Until now.

If the armorer is, indeed, obligated under the safety protocols in place on set to check the firearm with the actor who will be taking possession of that gun present and fully engaged in that check (rather than checking their cell phones or some other distraction), then we do effectively have the individual taking possession checking the gun. Which is good - because even though that individual was observing the armorer, once that individual has taken possession, that individual and no one else, not even the armorer who just demonstrated to them that the gun is "cold", assumes full responsibility for anything and everything that happens with that gun. Period.

Agreed. And, going one step further, (as we discussed earlier), there is no reason to have a fully functional firearm on set either. No reason whatsoever. Any firearm ever made is very easily disabled in such a way that it will still fire blanks, but no projectile could ever make it down the barrel. It baffles me why this is not the industry standard.

I think the fact that there is no live ammo allowed anywhere near set plays a big part in that.

Kind of like saying there are very few traffic accidents and deaths in the showroom of your local car sales lot.

I find it interesting (and rather telling) that you were so eager to "demonstrate" (and believe) the number of shooting deaths at gun ranges with your quick little google search (that gave you an answer you were after, so you not only quit looking but pronounced it as somewhat "authoritative"). Very easily questioned and debunked entirely.

Now, in sharp contrast, you are eager to accept craigster's number without any sort of verification whatsoever. This took me like three seconds:

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/1048295916/props-gun-death-injuries-rust-movie-set-rare

An Associated Press report from 2016 determined that from 1990 until the time of publication, at least 43 people died on sets in the U.S. and more than 150 had been left with life-altering injuries.

That's in the U.S. alone, in only 16 years.

It pretty much is the industry standard. Not sure if you watched these videos (one was posted awhile back). Karl at ISS displays some of the replicas and reworked guns that are made for filming.

This production didn't have the budget for acquiring their guns from ISS or just didn't think it to be that important.

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As you can see, we take firearms very seriously here in Hollywood.

Outstanding! That is exactly how it needs to be.

Who enforces these "industry standards"? I'm afraid that's a rhetorical question to which we both know the answer...

I would liken this situation to that seen on gun ranges across the land. There are "industry standards", but it falls to each and every range to understand and enforce them. Most do a pretty good job. Unfortunately, some do a terrible job, if they do anything at all. Just the way it is. Unfortunately, in every human endeavor.

Keeping the parallel going, we see gun ranges who "don't have the budget" or have other excuses for less than satisfactory safety features incorporated into their ranges. Again, and unfortunately, just the way it is.

And that is why the very simple, universally recognized gun safety protocols are so important. And they are free. When all else fails, when the physical environment is rendered unsafe due to cost cutting, inattention, laziness, or whatever - these measures will save the day. That's why we have them. Regardless of the condition of the guns, when these rules are followed, no one gets hurt. Live guns, loaded guns, "cold" guns, "hot" guns, real guns, fake guns, disabled guns - it just doesn't matter if these basic rules are followed.

I'm glad to see that some of you do. I would like to say all shooters do as well, but we both know better. There are turds in every punchbowl.

I'll try and not return any personal caricatures, but I will ask if you even read the AP article? I would expect you did, but that means you intentionally choose not to include additional details that would indicate the statistics offered were apparently an attempt to quantify "all deaths/major injuries on set".

There was a comma behind "injuries", in your quote...not a period...followed by , numbers derived by combing through data from workplace and aviation safety investigations, court records and news accounts. And those figures almost certainly don’t tell the entire story: The AP found several instances in which major accidents either weren’t reflected in investigation records or did not appear in an Occupational Safety and Health Administration database of the most serious set accidents.

Aviation accidents? Really? I'm expect those other deaths included falls, drowning, auto accidents, special effects (fire/explosion), crushing (dropped or moving objects), and any other unfortunate workplace incident. Certainly not all attributable to firearms (or street racing).

For clarity, the article also noted that Brandon Lee's shooting was not included in the data AP reviewed. That was clearly firearm related. Perhaps ctaigster59 or Hugh can offer more clarity.

I still wonder what the number of accidental shootings/deaths on properly operated ranges you would classify as "likely pretty darn minimal?

Just an example of what can happen at a gun range as well
 

BELLEVUE - A fatal shooting at a Bellevue firing range April 21 has been ruled an excusable homicide by the King County Prosecutor's Office. No charges will be filed.

Bellevue Police Lt. Bill Ferguson said evidence and statements from others at Wade's Eastside Gun Shop indicate the shot that hit Michael Chumney, 24, of Redmond was an accident. The gun was fired by a 30-year-old Kirkland woman.

The woman was shooting at the range with a powerful .44-caliber revolver when the recoil caused the gun to raise into the air. When a second round was fired, the recoil pushed the woman's arms back over her shoulder and a third shot, probably a reflex from the recoil, hit Chumney, who was standing behind her.

Another one, it does happen .
 

LOCAL
Man shot in both arms at Bellevue gun range sues
Levi Pulkkinen
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SeattlePI