Decent spoon?

[McLovin]

Around how many rounds do you go through in a half hour?

[jyl]

I only shot about 50 rds.

Got frustrated with my eyesight. It’s gotten to the point that I have glasses for distance, for normal, and for computer, and never have the right pair on. Basically my eyes are crap and it’s affecting my shooting a lot. The target at 50 ft is a sort of gray blur.

I’m also getting tired of target shooting with guns that aren’t meant for it. I was shooting my Paraordance P13, which is one of the early double stack 1911s. Good gun, very reliable, really not a target gun.

My next pistol will have an optic and be a full-on target pistol. Yeah, I’m getting old!

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by jyl

I dropped by the pistol range after work and shot for half an hour. It was fun and easy. Because I had a pistol. If I had a 12 ga, I’d never shoot it. Actually, I have one, and that’s true. I think a pistol that you shoot often and well might be preferable to a shotgun that you last operated two years ago.

What would you suggest for someone who will never visit a range (or rarely), or just can't shoot worth a damn... serious question btw. Wives, kids, elderly folks... need every "edge" to stop a threat... and many have and do....

A shotgun would be my answer.

When I shot my 870 loaded with 00 for the first time, I did not miss (or any shots since)..Hadn't shot a shotgun in 50 years, and never a pump fwiw

Everyone should do what is right for them however.. I'm not a range guy.... but am pretty confident I can defend myself with anything I have in my hands.... Seriously.

Haven't shot some of my spoons in years.... Nor have I laced up my running shoes.

Did you get to the range McLuv.... and have you started thinking about yer next spoon .... (yet)?

I remember Nostatic's journey over to the darkside....

You're gonna need a hat !

[Jeff Higgins]

Couldn't agree more - for anyone who cannot practice regularly, a shotgun is a better answer. Any long gun, really, is easier for novices or the unpracticed to wield effectively. Still, if you are able, it's nice to have that handgun close at hand in the nightstand. Grab it on your way to your shotgun, or if the intruder somehow got between you and your shotgun, which is across the room in the closet.

Novices and shotguns can pose one problem, though - they get pretty intimidated by the recoil. Thankfully, there are any number of "reduced recoil" loads out there these days. Some are even loaded in shortened shells, some short enough to even allow for a couple more in the magazine. Just make sure your shotgun feeds them reliably. I believe Mossberg at least, and maybe others, now have shotguns specifically modified to feed these short shells.

Yes, these have reduced pellet counts and reduced velocities but, let's face it - a full power 12 gauge is much, much more than we need in the living room. These reduced recoil, reduced power loads are still going to ruin someone's day in a big, big way.

[Tobra]

Any long gun is easier for a novice to wield.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is why the M1 Carbine exists

[rusnak]

I'm not trying to be preachy here. This thread and well...many of the gun threads here, can take on a sanctimonious tone due to a few pedantic priggish posts.

But I really do think it's very important to get training, especially if you have not shot in a long time, and especially if you own a firearm and there is any chance that you may need to defend your home with one.

You learn so many important things in a class at the range than you can by thinking about guns but not firing one. Maybe you'll find out that you should just sell the guns and get a dog. That alone would be worth the effort and time.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Any long gun is easier for a novice to wield.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is why the M1 Carbine exists

100% agree on both counts.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Thankfully, there are any number of "reduced recoil" loads out there these days.

I do that even though I am 6'4" and shoot a lot.

20 gauge Mossberg, pistol grip. It is a heavy gun, but control of the weapon is key.

Honestly, if I need more than the Ruger Vaquero and the Mossberg the day has not gone well.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by techman1

While I agree we all say practice is needed to be proficient, it is also needed to familiarize you with the controls of that particular firearm.

Double action - -at what point of trigger pull does the hammer drop? How smooth is the pull? if cloth gets in the way, will the hammer penetrate and still fire?

Semi auto - is there a magazine disconnect? In a struggle, will it come out of battery and not fire when pressed against someone? How easy is it to accidently bump the magazine release?

Practice is great; also use it to become familiar with the uniqueness of the firearm.

Exactly. I just picked up this compact 45 for a carry gun

And it will take some time for me to get use to and there a mods that I need to do to make it more comfortable for me.
On the shotgun front


This caught my eye at the range..

[KFC911]

I'm not a fan of pistol grip shotguns.... even with Fiocchi 00 Defensive load buckshot, you've got to aim, because of the pattern & spread. I don't shoot pistols from the hip either, and a short bbl shotgun is just best.... FOR ME. Reduced recoil from hunting buckshot, but still potent.... Out of the 9 .30 cal pellets, 2-4 will penetrate all the way through a seasoned 2x6 .... and my 870 likes 'em .

BTW .... don't underestimate the penetration.... always been a Cooper fan of big & slow for stopping power.... .45 ACP is better than .44 magnum .... 'cause Jeff said so .

On the local news yesterday.... Local guy shot through his ceiling during a domestic dispute.... killed the person upstairs.... Now charged with murder.... Idiot .

Other than a Marlin .357 (with JHPs), no rifles inside for me....

I don't go to ranges.... but I shoot enough to keep sharp .... I have rural property, and can also step over my back property line and be legal too fwiw.

I trust my dawg

[Jeff Higgins]

Dogs are great. As you guys know, I now have two. And yes, in spite of some initial trepidation over Ed allowing some upstart into his castle (he just lets me live here. And feed him...), things could not have worked out better.

World's best "early warning system". Not much chance that an intruder will wind up in your bedroom, between you and your shotgun, with a dog or two in the house. Especially if they know how to fetch the shotgun for you...

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by jyl

I dropped by the pistol range after work and shot for half an hour. It was fun and easy. Because I had a pistol. If I had a 12 ga, I’d never shoot it. Actually, I have one, and that’s true. I think a pistol that you shoot often and well might be preferable to a shotgun that you last operated two years ago.

Then a pistol may be the best choice for you.

I only shot about 50 rds.
Got frustrated with my eyesight. It’s gotten to the point that I have glasses for distance, for normal, and for computer, and never have the right pair on. Basically my eyes are crap and it’s affecting my shooting a lot.

Well, I'm back to a shotgun or get a dog.

I have found that unlike a pistol, a shotgun is easier to use even with less practice simply because you don't have to be quite so accurate with grip and aim. As have been said before - you do whatever you are willing to trust the lives of your family with.

[jyl]

My eyesight is a problem for target shooting. I don’t think it’s a problem for home defense shooting. I use the “NRA 50 ft smallbore rifle target”, because I’m cheap and it has 11 bullseyes on one piece of paper, for 2.2 cents per bullseye (my range sells each sheet for 25 cents). I used to be able to put all the rounds on or touching black, so I could use all the bullseyes, and get through a session using one sheet. Now I can still put them in the size of a palm - with a thumb and a finger for the flyers. But that means some holes are no longer in the black and I’m not able to use all the bullseyes on the sheet. So I’m gonna spend $3K on a new target spoon, to save 25 cents on targets. It makes perfect sense.

[rusnak]

My dogs are simply no good for defense. So I have an m4.

The pistol grip is part of an overall firing system. It is not a sole feature, in other words. The 18" barrel, gas charge semi auto feed, optic such as a patrol rifle Aimpoint, or in my case Eotech, and pistol grip work together. It's an answer for multiple moving threats at close range. If you ever try to fire muliple 00 Buck, slug, or especially magnum shells in rapid succession with accuracy, then the pistol grip will make a lot more semse to you.

I would absolutely, certainly 100% recommend a red dot optic on a defense pistol. It is superior to iron sights in every way. My HK VP9 has a Trijicon RMR, and it's my CCW weapon. During qualifying, it was hard to tell if rounds were even firing because they kept going down the same hole.

All of the optics mentioned will allow you to keep both eyes open and scanning around in order to recognize multiple moving threats.

[KFC911]

^^^^ Then get a better dawg ...

Is that the furry white ball that wants to drive yer truck on occasion?

Mebbe a Doberhuahua ?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by rusnak

My dogs are simply no good for defense. So I have an m4.

A home security system is not very good for defense either. But, if you are at home and, say, in bed, having it set to an audible alarm gives you the warning necessary to be able to respond before the intruder gets to you. That is what we are talking about with dogs - early warning, not defense.

Originally Posted by rusnak

The pistol grip is part of an overall firing system. It is not a sole feature, in other words. The 18" barrel, gas charge semi auto feed, optic such as a patrol rifle Aimpoint, or in my case Eotech, and pistol grip work together. It's an answer for multiple moving threats at close range. If you ever try to fire muliple 00 Buck, slug, or especially magnum shells in rapid succession with accuracy, then the pistol grip will make a lot more semse to you.

I think you misunderstood. I believe when KC911 mentioned "pistol grip shotguns", he was referring to the configuration shown in the photo. Pistol grip with no buttstock. I agree with him - those things are so hard to control as to be virtually useless, especially when considering the novice shooter. You must be referring to one with a full buttstock in addition to the pistol grip, otherwise your optic would be fairly useless.

Originally Posted by rusnak

I would absolutely, certainly 100% recommend a red dot optic on a defense pistol. It is superior to iron sights in every way. My HK VP9 has a Trijicon RMR, and it's my CCW weapon. During qualifying, it was hard to tell if rounds were even firing because they kept going down the same hole.

Optics have their place on a sidearm, but they are absolutely not "superior in every way". Maybe for you, but many shooters do just as well, if not better, with standard open sights.

It can be difficult to acquire the dot, especially under duress. They are far more fragile than iron sights. They make a carry piece that much bulkier that many will quit carrying it. They add another place to snag when being drawn under duress. And, in the end, the vast majority of defensive shootings are at barely more than arm's length, where their alleged superior precision is meaningless.

So, yeah, they may work on a "range gun", or a "fun gun", but myself, I would never consider one on a "serious" gun. To each his own, though. The inexperienced seem to be particularly attracted to these, because they see the cool kids at the "run, jump, crawl, and hide" matches using them, so they think they are all "tacti-cool" and all of that. No thanks. Too much to go wrong. Costing points in a match is one thing, the real world is another.

Originally Posted by rusnak

All of the optics mentioned will allow you to keep both eyes open and scanning around in order to recognize multiple moving threats.

Open sights are properly shot with both eyes open as well.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I would absolutely, certainly 100% recommend a red dot optic on a defense pistol. It is superior to iron sights in every way. .

With the caveat that i've never had to defend myself with a gun i am gonna disagree with your assertion.

I think i've mentioned it before but finding an electronic sight be it laser or red dot takes time and at in home distances you really do not need it. You don't really even need the iron sights at home defense distances.

[Rick Lee]

I have a red dot on my P365XL, but only because I got the gun, not realizing there was no dovetail cut for the night sights I prefer over the SIG X-ray ones. It does take some time to find the dot once in a while and I absolutely hate relying on batteries for anything.

The O-light on my bedside SIG is ridiculously bright, but also has a green laser, which I practiced with at the range yesterday. More importantly, the gun has the night sights on it that I love and they last for 10-12 yrs.

[rusnak]

^ I just can't get the laser to work consistently, whereas the RMR is very accurate.

LOL at the "only inexperienced people like red dots" comment.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by rusnak

^ I just can't get the laser to work consistently, whereas the RMR is very accurate.

LOL at the "only inexperienced people like red dots" comment.

Except, well, no one actually said that.

Very experienced competitive shooters use them. They are, however, playing games.

Many people, in a variety of pursuits - not just shooting - seem to be attracted to the equipment they see the "pros" using. Often, that is not the best equipment for their needs. As they gain experience, many come to realize that and adopt equipment more suited to their needs. So, in the end, we see neophytes misapplying all of the latest techno or tactical cool stuff, before they wise up and grow out of it.