HD to go full electric

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Some of you guys like to throw around ignorant stereotypes about subjects you obviously know nothing about.

Just showing how it works when its going in your direction.

.

huh? what stereotypes? what ignorance?

HD isnt just dying, the entire motorcycle ownership thing is dying.

dismiss this at your own peril. denying you have a demographics issue, is a great way to destroy your own pass time.

[GH85Carrera]

We have all seen the stereotype biker with "colors" and looking scary. Back when I had my 914 the horn connection was worn out, and just as I pulled up behind two scary real bikers at a red light the horn started honking and I was real fast about taking the horn ring off and killing it. They both looked back at me and I held up the horn ring and mouthed sorry.

I have several friends that have loved their old school Harley's and actually ridden all the way to Sturgis multiple times. Just men like Vinnie that like what they like, and truly don't give a crap what anyone else thinks about it.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The 90 degree V-Twin, on the other hand, has some pretty serious packaging problems in a motorcycle chassis. The motor itself is fantastic. It does, however, reduce the "sum of the parts" to a lesser "whole". It forces the motor to be too far back, it forces the wheelbase to be too long. Both affect handling and acceleration to a very negative degree. Motorcycles are not just motors, and the motor planform has a much greater impact on other design and performance elements than just its power output.

As a Duc owner, I’m surprised to read this Jeff. Having also owned many Harley’s and Ducati’s, I’d have to respectfully disagree on almost every point above. Obviously, we’re comparing apples and oranges, but one place Ducati excels is handling as a result of the elegant trellis frame and integral 90 degree twin.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/advice/inspiration/weekend-reads/history-of-ducati-desmodromic-v-twin/

[otto_kretschmer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The most dominant, all time winningest racing vehicle of any description (bike, car, airplane, boat, submarine, camel) in the history of this planet was a 45 degree V-Twin, with a better than 45 year record of near total domination unmatched by any other racing vehicle.

The 90 degree V-Twin, on the other hand, has some pretty serious packaging problems in a motorcycle chassis. The motor itself is fantastic. It does, however, reduce the "sum of the parts" to a lesser "whole". It forces the motor to be too far back, it forces the wheelbase to be too long. Both affect handling and acceleration to a very negative degree. Motorcycles are not just motors, and the motor planform has a much greater impact on other design and performance elements than just its power output.

Flat track racing on dirt ovals is a tiny niche of the motorcycle racing world. Its like racing farm equipment in the motorcycle world. I can't think of anyone except for HD who makes a 45 twin and they only keep building them because of their legacy. When they start a clean sheet motor like the V-Rod and Pan America they have used 60 deg twins.

45 twins are tall, and the bigger the bores get the farther the pistons have to be from the crank axis. They're so tall that there isn't room for a sump under the crank so they need to go with a dry sump and that needs an oil tank somewhere and a more complex oil pump and plumbing.

Some Milwaukee 8s have sumping problems and thats just a lack of scavaging of the oil pump. I don't know how Harley let that slip past their development team.

Every manufacture has their issues but Harley seems to go the extra mile sometimes. They are the only bike I know where the dealer technician will fix a customers bike with a pair of bolt cutters.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

As a Duc owner, I’m surprised to read this Jeff. Having also owned many Harley’s and Ducati’s, I’d have to respectfully disagree on almost every point above. Obviously, we’re comparing apples and oranges, but one place Ducati excels is handling as a result of the elegant trellis frame and integral 90 degree twin.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/advice/inspiration/weekend-reads/history-of-ducati-desmodromic-v-twin/

I'm with choc on this. I had a Japanese inline-4 sportbike before I had Ducatis. I remember riding them back-to-back (because I rode my YZF to the dealer to test ride a used carby 900SS). Even though the 900SS was a much older design, I found the Ducati to have simultaneously a quicker turn in, yet remain more stable mid-corner as well. Usually you get one or the other: quicker though a little bit nervous vs. more stable mid-corner yet harder to turn-in. The Ducati had both due to a superior chassis, which I attributed in large part to its narrower engine width. Obviously though, the Yamaha had a much better motor.

[Noah930]

If Harley goes all-electric, won't range be an issue?

When I lived in Portland, OR, I would go riding up in the mountains: Mount St Helens, Mount Ranier, Mount Hood, etc. And while I'd be on my Japanese sportbike, the vast majority of other bikes out there were touring bikes--like Harleys and their Japanese imitations, with the odd BMW thrown in. Granted some Harleys have small peanut tanks, but still there are a lot of gas stations even in the middle of nowhere. How are Harley riders going to go out exploring our vast country without charging infrastructure? So obviously Milwaukee cannot electrify the entire Harley line-up in the near future. They'll have to wait the decades it'll take for charging stations to become as plentiful as gas stations.

[Mahler9th]

We will see what happens. I have never owned an HD product and have not been a follower of that "brand."

I was in MKE in the period 60's-80's and worked with some ex-HD technical people during the latter part of that window. Lots of fans of HD products in that era. I even remember first registering "Harley Davidson" watching WW of Sports covering Evel K.

More recently I know of a company in our area that connected with HD on EV motorcycle tech (Alta-- I met one of their execs). That company didn't make it after HD pulled out of their deal.

HD has or had SillyCon Valley people-- I met one years ago.

I think Rivian hired away some HD MKE and SillyCon Valley talent in recent years.

Let's see what happens... lots of financial bets in the ACES space were made at top tier as well as tier two and lower quite some time ago. Lots of jockeying for position and starts and stops of initiatives related to the future of mobility.

Old atricle:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/25/actually-young-people-really-could-kill-harley-davidson.html

[908/930]

I'm thinking the HD electric will be built for police forces and similar paying customers, and will possibly be enough to keep them afloat, not sure if the riders wearing colours actually pay for their bikes.

[Eric 951]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

huh? what stereotypes? what ignorance?

HD isnt just dying, the entire motorcycle ownership thing is dying.

dismiss this at your own peril. denying you have a demographics issue, is a great way to destroy your own pass time.

dismiss motorcycle ownership "dying" at your own peril somehow destroys the pastime?

ignorance is correct.

BTW, nothing wrong with a V-twin, my Moto Morini was a great bike.

[asphaltgambler]

There is a lot of development work underway with the current M8 platform, both from HD as well as aftermarket companies. Below is just one example. This particular HD dealer is aggressively pursuing real high performance in their shop for those who want more but still be reliable. There is some affiliation with George Bryce; founder of Star Racing who is doing some 'consulting' work exclusively for them.

The bike in the video below is local to me and is very much well rounded and no joke. Modern performance, ABS brakes, and balanced.

[varmint]

more problems than just the engines.

[stevej37]

^^^ which one do you mean?

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

No parallel twin, huh?

You're getting into religion with the boxers. See you in PARF, buddy...

You're right Steve. I forgot about the Kawi 750 Ltd. parallel twin.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Eric 951

dismiss motorcycle ownership "dying" at your own peril somehow destroys the pastime?

ignorance is correct.

BTW, nothing wrong with a V-twin, my Moto Morini was a great bike.

i dont get this post. you just repeating the same thing back at me, with no additional data to show somehow that motorcycle ownership is on the rise significantly, or that HD is on the rise ... like ... what is this post for? did it make you feel better? cause it certainly didn't add anything to discussion.

im glad you might feel better at least. thats something. but it doesn't change anything already posted.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

As a Duc owner, I’m surprised to read this Jeff. Having also owned many Harley’s and Ducati’s, I’d have to respectfully disagree on almost every point above. Obviously, we’re comparing apples and oranges, but one place Ducati excels is handling as a result of the elegant trellis frame and integral 90 degree twin.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/advice/inspiration/weekend-reads/history-of-ducati-desmodromic-v-twin/

Mike, I'm sorry. My post was very misleading. We are in full agreement. As you say, our Ducatis handle exceptionally well due to their elegant, well thought out trellis frames and integral 90 degree "L-Twin". I might even go so far as to say they are one of the best handling motorcycles ever made. There is a sublime, confidence inspiring competence to their handling that is unmatched by many other motorcycles.

Where I failed was in providing any kind of an explanation for my assertions about the length of the motor, its rearward placement required by the length, and the attendant long wheelbase and their affect upon handling. I was thinking Moto GP, or World Superbike level bikes and riders. The very highest levels of performance achieved on motorcycles, the cutting edge of design and performance. My apologies - I completely left that part out.

Ducati had struggled with their dogged insistence upon some sort of a V or L type motor planform at these highest levels of racing. They obviously got it sorted last year, but they did struggle. The inline four allows for a more "modern" motorcycle planform, with the motor quite far forward, pushing the CG as far forward as possible. There was a lot of commentary on that over the years in which Ducati were struggling, with many calling for them to abandon their traditional planform. I'm glad they persisted...

But, yeah, for riders like you and me, in the real world, on real roads, I cannot think of a better handling motorcycle than the traditional Ducati trellis / stressed motor combination. As you and i have both experienced, they are simply wonderful.

Sorry for the confusion.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Mike, I'm sorry. My post was very misleading. We are in full agreement. As you say, our Ducatis handle exceptionally well due to their elegant, well thought out trellis frames and integral 90 degree "L-Twin". I might even go so far as to say they are one of the best handling motorcycles ever made. There is a sublime, confidence inspiring competence to their handling that is unmatched by many other motorcycles.

Where I failed was in providing any kind of an explanation for my assertions about the length of the motor, its rearward placement required by the length, and the attendant long wheelbase and their affect upon handling. I was thinking Moto GP, or World Superbike level bikes and riders. The very highest levels of performance achieved on motorcycles, the cutting edge of design and performance. My apologies - I completely left that part out.

Ducati had struggled with their dogged insistence upon some sort of a V or L type motor planform at these highest levels of racing. They obviously got it sorted last year, but they did struggle. The inline four allows for a more "modern" motorcycle planform, with the motor quite far forward, pushing the CG as far forward as possible. There was a lot of commentary on that over the years in which Ducati were struggling, with many calling for them to abandon their traditional planform. I'm glad they persisted...

But, yeah, for riders like you and me, in the real world, on real roads, I cannot think of a better handling motorcycle than the traditional Ducati trellis / stressed motor combination. As you and i have both experienced, they are simply wonderful.

Sorry for the confusion.

All true except for U-turns. My Monster can get it done but not as easily as one might think.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

All true except for U-turns. My Monster can get it done but not as easily as one might think.

The USS Enterprise has a tighter turning radius than my Duc. It will not do a u-turn on any two lane road, it's a three point turn at least.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

All true except for U-turns. My Monster can get it done but not as easily as one might think.

These guys have always impressed the crap out of me, how they can toss these tanks around. I have a couple friends that are/were in pd motor units. Incredible how they handle huge Glides.

[Jeff Higgins]

I took a class with one of our local PD's back in 2000 or 2001. They had us all doing this by the end of the weekend (two full days). We were on their bikes (I think retired from actual duty), by the way, which were all pretty uniformly scuffed up. I'm ashamed to admit that I did not continue to practice this, and have since lost the skill. Or the nerve (since it's my bike now...).

[Shaun @ Tru6]

90º V-twin greatness

How the Iconic Ducati 916 Changed the Superbike Game Forever/