Cross Section Of Kitchen Floor

[jyl]

Originally Posted by 908/930

Yes pretty easy to install hardwood, climatize it for a couple weeks. Cork is another pretty good option for kitchen floor providing no large dogs in the house.

No dogs.

What are cork floors like - wear, maintenance, staining (think red wine etc), comfort? Do they get deep permanent dents where things are set on them (my range and island are on casters)? If you drop a glass or dish, are they less likely to break if the floor is cork? Is the install just sticking down squares?

[908/930]

I installed a product from Cancork called Logan it is floating floor 1' x 3' so click together there is also glue down available. It is pre finished but they recommend adding a couple coats of Loba 2K Supra AT that I applied, very stain resistant have dropped dishes on it and they did not break. It has been down for 5 years and still looks like new. I do not have any chairs on that area, when I roll the fridge (450lbs) forward I place some 1/16 sheet metal down for it to roll on. Not sure if your casters would dent it, the cork layer is about 3/32", I have some leftover pcs here I will try it

[gregpark]

Back in the day I used to install, sand and finish roll cork flooring. Too many problems of heat from under the fridge and around heater vents. Now it comes in click together 2'x2' panels with a stout eurothane finish. Really good product that can hold up to large dogs and water. It's also available in many colors and configuration, really attractive flooring. The panels are rigid too so you should be able to install it directly over your subfloor without a plywood underlayment. Regardless, you should take out the existing flooring to the subfloor. You have ⅜" tile over ¼" cement board over ½" cdx plywood over five sixteenths ship lap strip "flooring" that's not proper flooring to begin with. It's not T&G to conceal fasteners so it was probably top nailed. The old school strip flooring was 2¼" wide, five sixteenths thick, always square edge and
top nailed. In CA usually red oak but sometimes white oak. Because of the expense, riffed sawn is rarely used. The greeny screws used to hold your cement board down are typically 1¼" long so go through the plywood, the "hardwood flooring" and a half inch into your subfloor. They are thick screws and have no doubt left big holes and split the thin boards beyond repair. They are a real bicth to pull . So busting out the tile then gridding the rest into removable squares is the easiest and fastest method.
You should also consider using an LVT flooring if you want a hardwood look. Beautiful and water proof (great for a kitchen) and barring a burn is a forever floor never needing replacement.

[look 171]

How many sq' of flooring are you talking about , John? You are trying to salvage the entire house or just the kitchen? If only the kitchen, it is not worth the extra work having to deal with an old tired floor. Remove old cabinets, get a big old shovel and shovel out the old floor, get it down to the joist. Install plywood sub floor, glue and screw, and play with the height accordingly with the new finish flooring material. You will be much happier and the work is so much better then what you have there. I am not going to say to not install another layer of flooring on top because people do it all the time. I just dislike doing that stuff not even for any of my rentals. another floor on top isn't going to make much different in terms of weight. I also suggest blocking off the floor joist

Now it time to update the electrical in the kitchen.

[gregpark]

A shovel? good luck with that. And why on earth would you replace the subfloor if there was nothing wrong with it? The walls are sitting on it!
You could cap the existing tile with a rigid LVT floating floor if the tiles are well adhered, flat, do not make noise and the elevation allows but if I was bidding on the job I'd have a waiver signed if the customer really wanted to save labor like that.

[look 171]

Its a figure of speech. I think John knows how to remove the floor and he still must get the old floor out somehow. A shovel is the easier way to pick up trash? I really think that sub floor has been sanded. It looks like ship lap instead or tongue and groove. Again, if this was my place, it needs to go. Plywood is so much stronger and stiffer. sister a joist around the perimeter and block it off to keep from moving if necessary. Slap plywood on top of that and move on. When we go in and do these things, I get rid of almost everything but the joist and level everything up and start fresh. No issues, no bounce, and start with a perfectly clean slate. In terms of saving money, I truly believe this isn't where one should penny pinch. What do I know, but that's what I would do to my own home or anyone else's.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by gregpark

See that little nail holding the heater duct to the side of the floor? Pry it out to expose the layers of flooring.

Originally Posted by look 171

I really think that sub floor has been sanded. It looks like ship lap instead or tongue and groove.

It's interesting, and I hadn't said anything because Zeke, Jeff, and Greg are all FAR more experienced and knowledgeable than most of us in this sort of thing.

But I've been assuming that we aren't seeing all of the one board. I've been assuming that it's a full TnG board but that the bottom third is obscured by the vent that looks like it's nailed into it.

[Zeke]

Steve, I think the rounded bottom of those strips indicate the top was sanded too deep. This happens a lot. The ols 3/8ths floors were good for one sanding. Do it 2wice and the nails would show.

Jly, if you are removing cabinets this job just got easy. Chip some tile, set your saw depth and cut the sucker down the middle. Leave the diagonal sheathing. Greg was right about that and I think Jeff meant more or less the same. I have cut to the joists before though. I just ran a saw around the perimeter which leaves 1.5 ".

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Steve, I think the rounded bottom of those strips indicate the top was sanded too deep.

Gotcha! You and the other fellas are far more experienced and have seen many more similar situations than I have (my experience is a single owner build home). In my case, the floor is right on the joists, and is a bit over 7/8" thick.

[gregpark]

BTW, there's nothing wrong with 1x diagonal as subfloor. Mamy of us in older homes have it, mine is over a hundred years old. As long as it's reasonably level and no rot or bug infestation, leave it be. And even if there a problem, sections can be replaced. Any contractor who tells you to replace it "just because" is either ignorant or a crook

[gregpark]

Originally Posted by masraum

It's interesting, and I hadn't said anything because Zeke, Jeff, and Greg are all FAR more experienced and knowledgeable than most of us in this sort of thing.

But I've been assuming that we aren't seeing all of the one board. I've been assuming that it's a full TnG board but that the bottom third is obscured by the vent that looks like it's nailed into it.

Good point Steve, but if you look closely, the heat duct sheet metal appears to be bent over the subfloor and under the first layer of flooring which leads me to believe the first layer of flooring is not T&G. Regardless, it's more than likely destroyed beyond repair. The nail you see is to pin the metal to the side of the opening to allow a heat register cover to drop in.

[Superman]

This has the potential to be a huge long disruptive project with surprises that increase the scope, duration and disruption. I know I am stating the obvious, which everyone here already understands.

[gregpark]

It's really pretty simple. Remove the old and in with the new!

[masraum]

Originally Posted by gregpark

Good point Steve, but if you look closely, the heat duct sheet metal appears to be bent over the subfloor and under the first layer of flooring which leads me to believe the first layer of flooring is not T&G. Regardless, it's more than likely destroyed beyond repair. The nail you see is to pin the metal to the side of the opening to allow a heat register cover to drop in.

Got ya! I see that now. Seems like weirdly thin shiplap or heavily sanded TnG, but then it sounds like some wood flooring is thinner when new than I'd expect.

[gregpark]

Yes, old school hardwood strip flooring is only five sixteenths thickness. It can be sanded and refinished twice, sometimes requiring the top nails to be punched down with a nail set and re filled.. After re setting once, there's not enough meat left for the nails to hold the boards down. But a good finish should last 20 years so you're good for around 60 years and then it's time to replace

[jyl]

Ok so I took out a section of tile and backer, see http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1162756-cabinets-arrived.html for context, and it looks like this



I see the original diagonal subfloor, then the original wood floor, then the plywood subfloor which could have been put in when the house was refinished in 2000 or could be from an earlier remodel.



Here is the cross section. The tongue and groove flooring is about 7/8” thick.

I don’t know if the rest of the floor looks like this, in terms of the thickness remaining of original floor. But suppose it does. And let’s suppose the missing parts are not too extensive. None of which I’ll know until I dig deeper.

What do you think about sanding and saving the original floor?

I realize it will look, well, like a very old floor that got CPR and patching. A vintage, patina aesthetic if you will. Which might be charming, or might not. At probably higher effort and cost than installing a new wood floor. It won’t match the other wood floors on the first floor, which are narrower oak strips and not original to the house.

But how do you think it will work as a floor?

[look 171]

That TG floor looks pretty tired and I bet that plywood was installed for some type of flooring that need a solid substrate. Some people like that look with bits and pieces of lumber rotten and missing. Talk to a floor finisher and they can level out that floor in no time with the drum sander. My suggestion is to remove the plywood and see the condition of the TG flooring then decide what to do with it. I personally would install a new floor by removing both plywood and TG flooring.

[gregpark]

That's ⅜ underlayment plywood stapled or screwed or nailed to the subfloor. We use a lot of fasteners to put underlayment down so your T&G will be very rustic indeed. To remove
underlayment I set my saw to the thickness and grid it into 2' sections for removal

[jyl]

Okay, removing the stone tile and backer board is nasty work. My son is doing most of it. We use a circular saw with diamond blade to cut along the grout lines of the 12x12 tile, then use hammer and prybar to pull the backer board off the plywood subfloor. It takes some prying even though the backer board is only nailed down here and there, not glued down. I think he might not be sawing fully through the backer board, so we may be able to improve the process.

[gregpark]

A nasty job indeed with no easy way. Do yourself and your son a favor and pick up a couple of Stanley Fat Max wrecking bars. The ends are shaped right and even with one guy doing it by himself 2 bars work better than 1. I think they're about $30. and they will save you a lot of time