Any information about the Pacific Palisades Fire

[craigster59]

The main house at Will Rogers State Park is gone. It was kept in the same condition as it was when he died in 1935. Terrible loss.

[javadog]

Did the Getty survive? I saw a photo where the fire was all the way up to it.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

In the reliability engineering world an event like this is known as a Black Swan event.
The confluence of multiple factors to create a catastrophic event like what happened.

On another note; For a while now swimming pools have been frowned upon as wasteful opulence in SoCal, I think that after this event a 20K gallon hillside lot swimming pool will now be considered a valuable piece of infrastructure that can be used to protect the home. The anecdotal stories of the firemen pumping pools into their fire trucks to carry on the fight are out there along with homeowners who used their pools to fight the fire and save their home.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

In the reliability engineering world an event like this is known as a Black Swan event.
The confluence of multiple factors to create a catastrophic event like what happened.

On another note; For a while now swimming pools have been frowned upon as wasteful opulence in SoCal, I think that after this event a 20K gallon hillside lot swimming pool will now be considered a valuable piece of infrastructure that can be used to protect the home. The anecdotal stories of the firemen pumping pools into their fire trucks to carry on the fight are out there along with homeowners who used their pools to fight the fire and save their home.

Back in '84, when I moved to the Santa Monica mountains, the fire department encouraged those of us with swimming pools to buy floating pumps to defend our properties. At least one Palisades resident was interviewed & stated he stayed with his home and used swimming pool water to save his house. In '93, there was a Malibu resident who saved his and 3 other houses using swimming pool water.

[Deschodt]

Videos of that wind blowing ambers are incredible., it's like a flamethrower essentially, and now I understand the situation better. It seemed improbable to me that cities away from vegetation could still burn nowadays but man, after seeing that wind !!!!! I have a team coming to my yard to trim all the trees this week - it's nice and wet here but it still freaked me out...

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

In the reliability engineering world an event like this is known as a Black Swan event.
The confluence of multiple factors to create a catastrophic event like what happened.

On another note; For a while now swimming pools have been frowned upon as wasteful opulence in SoCal, I think that after this event a 20K gallon hillside lot swimming pool will now be considered a valuable piece of infrastructure that can be used to protect the home. The anecdotal stories of the firemen pumping pools into their fire trucks to carry on the fight are out there along with homeowners who used their pools to fight the fire and save their home.

Perhaps something as simple as just building more storage that could be filled when the massive rains do come (like last year) would be a good idea.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Back in '84, when I moved to the Santa Monica mountains, the fire department encouraged those of us with swimming pools to buy floating pumps to defend our properties. At least one Palisades resident was interviewed & stated he stayed with his home and used swimming pool water to save his house. In '93, there was a Malibu resident who saved his and 3 other houses using swimming pool water.

There is that iconic photo from the Laguna Hills fire back in 1993. I forget what the back story was on the house, perhaps masonry construction. There was discussion about Ice Plant being a fire retardant landscaping but not sure if it applied here.

[ted]

Originally Posted by craigster59

There is that iconic photo from the Laguna Hills fire back in 1993. I forget what the back story was on the house, perhaps masonry construction. There was discussion about Ice Plant being a fire retardant landscaping but not sure if it applied here.

Houses with no eves to catch the heat and no side yard fences attached to the house did better during that fire.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

One would think that in a region at such high risk for these events, pressure sensitive check valves would be required by state building codes.

I was thinking about that.

So if normal minimum residential supply line water pressure is 50 psi, a check valve in each house's supply to shut off water if pressure falls to, say, 40 psi? And maybe a manual bypass, in case the valve malfunctions. EDIT: hmm, how do you handle the range of normal water pressures in different municipal water systems and locations - can be 40 psi, can be 80 psi?

Alternatively, how about a valve that closes if exposed to the heat of a house fire. With a manual bypass. EDIT: like a fusible link or equivalent melts and releases a spring that closes the valve.

With valve and bypass, and everything upstream, made of metal and designed to survive fire. You'd install these right where the supply line enters the house, typically in the basement, downstream of the main shutoff valve. Would either work?

I guess someone will complain that they needed water for some emergency and the check valve shut off, but if the emergency was such that they couldn't get to the manual bypass . . .

Concept similar to the automatic shutoffs for natural gas systems. Which, come to think of it, I don't have.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by ted

Houses with no eves to catch the heat and no side yard fences attached to the house did better during that fire.

I think houses can be built to be much more fire resistant than the typical SoCal house. Fire-resistant cladding like cement board (Hardie), no eaves or fire resistant eaves w/o vents, fire-resistant roof material, appropriate landscaping. Any info on how much this helps in actual practice?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by jyl

I was thinking about that.

So if normal minimum residential supply line water pressure is 50 psi, a check valve in each house's supply to shut off water if pressure falls to, say, 40 psi? And maybe a manual bypass, in case the valve malfunctions.

Alternatively, how about a valve that closes if exposed to the heat of a house fire. With a manual bypass.

With valve and bypass, and everything upstream, made of metal and designed to survive fire. You'd install these right where the supply line enters the house, typically in the basement. Would either work?

I guess someone will complain that they needed water for some emergency and the check valve shut off, but if the emergency was such that they couldn't get to the manual bypass . . .

Concept similar to the automatic shutoffs for natural gas systems. Which, come to think of it, I don't have.

Why not put it underground at the meter?

[jyl]

[QUOTE=LWJ;12387513]

On a positive note (if anything positive about this) is that homeowners insurance covers fires (not flood damage like with Helene). Homeowners that lose their house and survive will be able to rebuild...somewhere./QUOTE]

Except this size of loss is going to shock and paralyze the Insurance industry. We are currently seeing a very hard market for older properties - I had a "to the studs" remodeled apartment go from $8K to $36K this month due to the hard market and one goofy claim that they probably didn't cause. Have another property we have not found any coverage yet - older and less desireable.

After the Camp Fire (poorly named!) in 2018 CIG Insurance had reserves that were so low the rating was going from an A to a B. Which is the start of a death spiral for an insurance carrier. They merged (sold) with a large national firm to avoid this.

I expect that property coverage and rates are going to become a significant issue in the US due to this fire(s).

Initial estimates $57BN damage in total (economic) loss (so far).

Initial estimates of insured loss $20MM (so far).

" Expectations of economic losses stemming from the fires have more than doubled since yesterday to closer to $50 billion, and we estimate that insured losses from the event could exceed $20 billion (and even more if the fires are not controlled),” JPMorgan wrote in a note to clients. " Financial Times

" State Farm — one of the state’s biggest insurers — dropping 70 percent of its customers in and around the Santa Monica Mountains last summer. " New York Times

Good call by someone at State Farm. I mean, good for State Farm.

[onewhippedpuppy]

There are flow based water valves that detect when your water flow exceeds normal use, such as a large leak, and shuts off your water. Something like that would probably help here considering the importance of the water system.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Why not put it underground at the meter?

Would be ok for the low pressure-activated check valve, not for the heat-activated check valve.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

There are flow based water valves that detect when your water flow exceeds normal use, such as a large leak, and shuts off your water. Something like that would probably help here considering the importance of the water system.

I have been looking into those for my house, as protection from a water leak.

The ones I've seen are allegedly "smart" and learn your "normal" usage pattern and either alert you via WiFi or automatically shut off if they detect "abnormal" usage, and to protect against small leaks they need remote leak detectors. Anyway, they are plastic and electronics. Not sure if they are "fail-open" or "fail-closed" devices.

You know, you could also have a check valve that closes if temperature sensors in the house detect, lets say, 1000F. Presumably should be "fail-closed" since the electronics will be destroyed. Not sure how they'd handle a power outage, but a manual bypass solves a lot of things.

In general, it would be nice if this device is rugged, reliable, inexpensive, easy to install, doesn't require power, functions in fire up to 2000F, and lasts 50 years. So I'd be biased against anything electronic. In fact, I'd be biased against anything not stainless steel because the melting point of copper, brass, etc is <2000F.

And you'd have to force everyone to install one reasonably promptly (not wait until they pull a plumbing permit, could be 30 years) since there is zero benefit to the individual homeowner.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by jyl

Would be ok for the low pressure-activated check valve, not for the heat-activated check valve.

Only need one for high flow (regardless of heat) ...as the purpose is to protect the main line (and subsequently the fire hydrant system on that line) from loss of pressure/water if the lines burst in the house. At the meter gives easy access for the municipality to install/maintain them at the shutoff. They can install one street at a time without ever entering the homes (and require them for all new buildings).

[red 928]

Originally Posted by LWJ

On a positive note (if anything positive about this) is that homeowners insurance covers fires (not flood damage like with Helene). Homeowners that lose their house and survive will be able to rebuild...somewhere.

Except this size of loss is going to shock and paralyze the Insurance industry. We are currently seeing a very hard market for older properties - I had a "to the studs" remodeled apartment go from $8K to $36K this month due to the hard market and one goofy claim that they probably didn't cause. Have another property we have not found any coverage yet - older and less desireable.

After the Camp Fire (poorly named!) in 2018 CIG Insurance had reserves that were so low the rating was going from an A to a B. Which is the start of a death spiral for an insurance carrier. They merged (sold) with a large national firm to avoid this.

I expect that property coverage and rates are going to become a significant issue in the US due to this fire(s).

I would be very surprised if this all lands on insurance companies.
It's too big.
And if it did, the only insurance companies left to survive
would bail on Cali.
I predict much of the burden will fall on the
federal government (the taxpayers).
Just like they did with the banks and car companies
in 2007, bail-out time.

[creaturecat]

Originally Posted by Dpmulvan

Edit. There is a thread in PARF. Use it, DP.

thankfully? i can only imagine how disgusting that conversation must be.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

When everyone in the fire area started using their garden hoses the water pressure dropped.
When folks abandoned their homes they left faucets and hoses on which reduced water pressure even further.
Having a generator with a transfer switch for the pool pump is what I did. The pump motor has a ASD drive and has more HP than necessary. I cram rubber plugs into the pool piping inlets and run the motor @ full speed. I can arc a stream of 1.5" hose water 80' that has my neighbors green with envy and thinking of the same.
I put on my driving suit and helmet and look like a fool, but its my home and I'll do what i got to. You just can't count on the FD at all. I'm working on a filter air pack to hook to my helmet, smoke inhalation is my concern.
They found a guy dead with a garden hose in his hand yesterday with black nostrils.

Edit: Be tired of it in PARF.

[gregpark]

180,000 evacuated, horrible. We went through a fire storm 7 years ago in the Napa Valley and beyond but on a miniscule scale compared