Conservatives = Strange Bedfellows

[Purrybonker]

I know that the GOP is populated by folk of many different "stripes" shall we say. Everything from the social moderates to the extremists that GWB seems to attract out of their various closets.

But this board is a bit of a microcosm (sp?) of American society and there's one element of it that I just don't get when I see postings here from that element.

The bible thumpers.

The people that are loud in their support of traditional (old world, or even new world, for that matter) religions and proud to wear their religion on their sleeves. How do those people rationalize bombing the crap outta people half way around the world as being consistent with the teachings of their chosen denomination and in doing so are equally loud and (seemingly) proud of the activities of GWB?

Or is it that the holy rollers support GWB because of his social agenda (that anti-gay stuff, etc) and merely hold their noses, or prefer to look the other way over the Iraq issue?

No offense intended....

[Neilk]

Purry, you obviously don't know ANYTHING.

Didn't you know that George asked god for guidance on Iraq and he was given the go ahead to bomb Iraq and the Muslims.

[Superman]

Purry, I think your question is similar to the one I asked in a thread called "Conservative Christians." It got lots of replies. In addition to the vengeance we're quite obviously extracting from the Iraqi people, there is the domestic policy questions. How can folks support a "survival of the fittest" economy (a.k.a "capitalism"), and also pretend they are followers of Jesus Christ? Loads of contradictions within the conservative crowd. LOADS. They're having their cake and eating it too. This way, they can criticize all the people they hate, take greed to a new national level, enjoy the carnage and vengeance in the MI, and feel self-righteous all at the same time.

[island911]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
I . .. How do those people rationalize bombing the crap outta people half way around the world as being consistent with the teachings of their chosen denomination ....

I think that you will find that when it comes down to kill or be killed, most will choose self-defence.

I will say that those bible thumpers who base their argument solely on "so it is written. . ." are annoying as hell.
Though, also annoying as hell are those who label anything out of the bible (or in the pursuit of being godly. . .doing gods work) as being in-line with kooks.

Sure religions are often abused by people seeking power . . . "kooks."
However, there are those working in good faith, within religions to make the world a better place.

Recognizing the difference is wise.

[jm951]

If you'll take the time out of your rant about Bible thumpers, read this on the concepts of Christianity as it relates to war.

Just War Concepts

[jm951]

A few words on Homosexuality- get this very clear- Christians are supposed to be capable of separating the person from the deed.

Homosexuality

[jm951]

And a few words on same sex "marriage"

Same Sex Marriage- Christian view

[Burnin' oil]

Originally posted by Superman
Purry, I think your question is similar to the one I asked in a thread called "Conservative Christians." It got lots of replies. In addition to the vengeance we're quite obviously extracting from the Iraqi people, there is the domestic policy questions. How can folks support a "survival of the fittest" economy (a.k.a "capitalism"), and also pretend they are followers of Jesus Christ? Loads of contradictions within the conservative crowd. LOADS. They're having their cake and eating it too. This way, they can criticize all the people they hate, take greed to a new national level, enjoy the carnage and vengeance in the MI, and feel self-righteous all at the same time.

Super, do you see the irony of referring to others as "self righteous?"

[MichiganMat]

Every good Bible-thumper knows that GW hates gays and blacks and muslims the same way God does. He just can't say it because he has to keep the rest of our godless nation at ease until they find Jesus.

[Superman]

Burnin', did I say I was "good?" 99.9% of us seem to have no trouble noticing the sliver in someone else's eye, but real trouble seeing the beam in ours. I have my favorite sins. I don't point my finger at homosexuals and women who have had abortions, and I don't wish for revenge for 9/11. But I do have other sins, most definitely. So, I'm not suggesting that I can earn my way to Heaven on points.

Still, I seem to have a fairly easy time noticing the irony of people who think they are pleasing God, while pointing their fingers at others. I'm kind of hyper-sensitive to it. I've seen it absolutely caricaturized in my family life.

So, if you're suggesting I make sure not to miss my own sinfulness, I gotcha covered there big guy. If you spent a month with me, and you never criticized anyone, then neither of us would. But if you start going off on someone else's Godless behavior, I'll probably let you have it.

[MichiganMat]

Superman, we all know you worship Cthulu, don't try to hide behind your veil of domestication

[djmcmath]

Having desperately attempted to explain what is a cleanly coherent position in the "Conservative Christian" thread, I think I won't waste my breath here.

Dan

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Superman
Burnin', did I say I was "good?" 99.9% of us seem to have no trouble noticing the sliver in someone else's eye, but real trouble seeing the beam in ours.

Trust me dude, I got the beam out of my eye, man you got a massive beam in both of yours.

[Superman]

Dan I went back and read your comments there, and am reminded of two things. One, you have read and thoughtfully considered the Bible and can express yourself very well. I've appreciated your thoughts. The other thing that strikes me is the civil tone of that very controversial thread, compared to the carnage in virtually all OT threads now.

[djmcmath]

Thanks for the positive feedback, Supe. It's encouraging to have an occasional reminder that Pelican can support positive dicussion, rather than merely name-calling and regurgitation of truths and half-truths we've all heard before.

The following is a rant, indirectly related to the topic of this thread, but more closely related to the pattern of threads discussing Christianity and it's weaknesses.
It occurs to me that if more Christians actually sat down and bothered to read the Bible to find out what it is we're supposed to really believe, things would be different. For one, Christians might actually live like little-Christs, something we rarely get right. For two, it's entirely possible that we'd be able to effectively communicate our position to people who don't understand it -- something we also routinely fail miserably at, as a group. Third, people who aren't Christians could look at our lives, talk to us about what we believe, and they'd realize that the fundamental position has coherency -- quite unlike the often radically differing views that are found wandering around the mostly empty skulls of many people who call themselves Christians.

Part of the problem is modern churches. So many people come to church not to learn about God, to serve others, to become better Christians, but rather to be served, to be taught, to leech off the good-will and mercy of other Christians. Needless to say, the latter approach is neither Biblical nor conducive to a positive church experience. Of course, the above problem only affects Christians who go to church. I meet many people who claim to be Christian, but can't explain what it means, or why, and have no idea when they last attended a fellowship of other Christians. Such individuals are no more Christian than the Catholic who was sprinkled at birth but hasn't been back since, or the Muslim who was born in Medina and has since migrated to Chicago and doesn't even own a Koran. You would no more base your interpretation on the Koran on an Arab who had never read it than you would base your interpretation of the Bible on the word of a man who claimed to be Christian, but whose life clearly does not reflect his claims.

Perhaps I'll start a series of threads on basic biblical hermaneutics. Perhaps I'll slowly work through Romans. With some participation from all the dissenting parties, we could at least come to agreement about what conservative Christians believe about the Bible.

In a way which is particularly saddening to me, as a Christian, I find that Pelican is often a more ready example of Christ-like virtues than my church. I see people volunteering to drive off to random places to help people they barely know venture into the unknown. I see intelligent discussion on a wide variety of topics, most of which have the aim of furthering the immersion into perfect Porschism on many levels -- from the newest of the new to the most senior Pelican. OTOH, I also see back-stabbing, trolling, threats of violence, name-calling, cruel sarcasm, etc.

The parallel is actually pretty good -- we are unified about only one thing -- Porsches are cool. Outside of that, anything is up for argument. The farther from the base topic of the coolness of Porsches, the more disagreement there is. Virtually all Christians agree on the bumper-sticker "Salvation by faith," while disagreeing on almost everything else.

(shrug) I'm done. Thanks for listening.

Dan

[techweenie]

Originally posted by djmcmath
The following is a rant, indirectly related to the topic of this thread, but more closely related to the pattern of threads discussing Christianity and it's weaknesses.
It occurs to me that if more Christians actually sat down and bothered to read the Bible to find out what it is we're supposed to really believe, things would be different. For one, Christians might actually live like little-Christs, something we rarely get right. For two, it's entirely possible that we'd be able to effectively communicate our position to people who don't understand it -- something we also routinely fail miserably at, as a group. Third, people who aren't Christians could look at our lives, talk to us about what we believe, and they'd realize that the fundamental position has coherency -- quite unlike the often radically differing views that are found wandering around the mostly empty skulls of many people who call themselves Christians.
...

Very well said.

The bible is very clear on how to conduct yourself as a Christian. And for those few people doing so, the quiet, loving way they live their lives make them an inspiration -- one that has more power to convert than thousands of shouting TV preachers. In other words, the lives of real Christians are a beacon to others.

To many self-proclaimed Christians have simply substituted the mantle of "Christian" to replace some other drug in their lives. Those people are angry and loud and easy to spot.

Here is my least-favorite "Christian" institution: The Westboro Baptist Church

http://www.godhatesfags.com

[jm951]

Good response Dan. I've long maintained that many in the pews aren't really Christians in anything but name and that the next Sunday after the rapture, there will be many churches carrying on business as usual with no drop in attendance. Let's get started on with Romans.

Edit-

Tech- God doesn't hate fags or anybody for that matter. What He does hate is the sin that people commit and the list is pretty plain in Romans 1. Where many fall down is not being able to separate the person from the deed. That is at the core of Christianity. No matter what you've done, God will forgive and accept you if you accept Christ as Savior. It's really quite simple. I agree that sites like the one you've linked give Christianity a very bad name and those folks are way off base.

[Superman]

Yep. Absolutely. I've mentioned here recently that the core requirements of Christianity are simple. Paul tells us in Romans that if we believe that Christ is the Son of God, and speak that truth, we are saved. It's a simple as that. But not really. I've also warned that if you really do believe He is God's Son, then your believe will necessarily have a powerful impact on your behavior.

Now Dan, you speak of the observed behavior of Christians, or at least people who say they are Christians. I am reminded that Christ asked us to love God with all our being, and also to love our neighbor as ourselves. And here comes the part that's both hard and easy: This is what "love" is. If you've ever really experienced love, you know it is the desire to make someone else happy. Love is an outward thing. It is the opposite of selfishness. All sins are acts of selfishness. So, the picture Christ tried to paint for us in terms of our corporeal behavior is one of giving. Selflessness. Generosity. Focusing on others.

Here's another interesting way of looking at it, and humbling for those who think they're scoring high marks with God. There is one person in this world who, no matter how terrible they have been, no matter how surly, no matter how selfish they consistently behave, you will continue to love with all your heart. Even when this person is cheating their partners, stealing, lying, etc., you want the best for them. You want them to have something delicious to eat. You want them to have a nice car and you hope everyone treats them with generosity.

That person is you. And that might be the only person you truly love.

[djmcmath]

Tech, thanks for the reply -- that one concurrence really made my day.

I'm actually quite familiar with "godhatesfags." I had a discussion (via e-mail) with the guy who runs that site several years ago, and have determined that he's quite lost in his utterly non-Christian hatred of sinners. Too bad he has no realization of the fact that (wait for it) he's also a sinner, and stands just as condemned. If you're into Romans, he's the guy who's read chapter 1 ("God's wrath is being poured forth on godless blah blah blah and God gave them over to their sinful desires blah blah blah") but missed chapter 2 ("You who believe yourselves righteous are just as condemned!").

Supe, that's profound. You know I'm the sort of arrogant jacka$$ who likes to amplify other people's remarks, but I can't think of a thing to add.


Dan



PS -- I'll be doing Romans seriously with my Saturday morning men's bible study this fall. If there's some interest, I may start posting my notes here as I go. (shrug)

[MichiganMat]

The godhatesfags guy, the leader, protests at the U of M LGTB "kiss-in" every year. He brings throngs of families and children with signs about how gays will burn in hell. Its an ugly display.

A friend, not a close friend, hit him with a pie a few years back. Go Blue.