Right to Choose?

Jeff Higgins · 12:25 PM

Abortion is legal in this country as well as many others. It is touted by its supporters as "a woman's right to choose". Well, doesn't it take two to tango? Where is the man's "right to choose" in all of this? Shouldn't the man have equal say? It seems society's reaction to the plight of the man responsible for an unwanted pregnancy is that he should have kept it in his pants; he should be better able to control himself. Too bad buckwheat, you need to suck it up and face the music. Can't the same be said about the woman? Why does she get any easy out if she can't control herself? Why is she entirely in the driver's seat on this? Today, even if the man wants to keep the child and support it, he does not have final say as to whether it is aborted or not. If he wants nothing to do with it, she can decide to have the baby and make the guy support it to adulthood. He is merely a spectator in the whole thing, totally subject to the will of the woman. Should he be? Here is what I propose: While the man cannot compel the woman to have an abortion, he should at least be able to say, in some offical manner, that he does not want the child. She still has the final say in what she wants to do with the child, just like now. If the woman chooses to keep it over his objections, he is off the hook. He is telling her to essentially "abort it or support it". After all, he is merely requesting her to employ a legal means to avoid the financial and emotional burden of supporting an unwanted child. Even if the woman is morally opposed to abortion, that really should not enter into the equation unless she is prepared to support it herself. We should not, after all, mix legality and morality, right?

Just a quick edit so everyone knows where I stand. I am very much opposed to abortion for any reason. I see "right to choose" as merely a comfortable euphamism for murder. Society has legitimatized and taken most of the sting out of a tragically wrong "choice" for women. Why not complete the tragedy and allow men equal say? Society has pushed for women to be "equal" to men in every regard, why doesn't the same society push for men to have "equal say"?

bryanthompson · bryanthompson's Garage

the question is flawed, imho.

mikester · 05-03-2005, 11:52 AM

Ultimately it depends on the relationship in my *OPINION*.

If it's a one night stand - no - you got no say.

If you're in a relationship, say a marriage or some other long term relationship then yeah. You likely should have some say but in the end it isn't your body that's going to go through the pregnancy so any say a man is going to have is not going to be a full 50%.

With that in mind if reasonable effort to prevent the pregnancy was made; which in my opinion is two forms of birth control at the same time; then if there is a pregnancy and the woman does not terminate and those are the wishes of man involved his obligation should be minimal.

Again, these are my opinions alone. I do not condone nor condemn those who would choose this option. I do not condone those who would be irresponsible in their sexual encounters though. Just because you don't want a kid doesn't get you off the hook of financial responsibility if you were not responsible to begin with and used protection (that ultimately failed).

Flame on.

Crowbob · 05-03-2005, 12:10 PM

Jeff,

Your reasoning is sound but the conclusion is not. If it is not legal for a father to force an abortion on a woman, it should also be not legal for a woman to force an abortion on her child. Also, the argument that morality and legality are separate and should be that way is specious. Legality flows from morality. "Legal" and "illegal" come from "right" and wrong". Only recently has the abhorence of the concept of morality made itself known in popular culture. Specifically, liberal ideology and it's agenda can not go forward if there is a strong moral base in society. Hence, the separation. The disconnect between morality and legality is also quite evident in fascist (Nazi Germany), communist (China) and other totalitarian governments (Cuba). Of course, any moral (i.e., religious) extremist can pervert morality any way they so choose such as what we are experiencing from the Islamicists.

Now I will hide from the slings and arrows.

RallyJon · 05-03-2005, 12:33 PM

Unfortunately our society finds it perfectly reasonable that a malicious young woman can ruin a man's life on a whim. Women have all the power in this situation.

It's wrong, but it's the way life is. Don't ever believe a woman who says she's on the pill, and don't forget to take your used condoms with you when you leave.

lendaddy · 05-03-2005, 12:36 PM

This is what Roe vs Wade was all about, unless I'm mistaken....

It wasn't really about abortion, but rather if the father had any rights. The answer is no, we have NO rights. Thanks for playing, come back soon.

stevepaa · 05-03-2005, 12:42 PM

Jim, You are assuming that your morality is the chosen one. So which is that? A morality that allows divorce? A morality that prohibits alcohol? A morality that prohibits dancing unless married?

Not sure what liberal ideology and agenda that you refer to. Is that civil rights? Right to vote? Anti death penalty. It seems that all those are part of liberal viewpoint and strongly moral.

Jeff, Back on abortion. I know that you consider it murder, so what is your answer for the victim of a rape who gets pregnant?

Crowbob · 05-03-2005, 12:45 PM

Len,

Roe V Wade was about privacy. Somehow one's right to life. liberty and property is subordinate to another's right to privacy. I know, it's twisted. But, not as twisted as females of age 18 not being required to register for selective service. We're all equal. Men are just a little less equal, that's all.

Crowbob · 05-03-2005, 12:53 PM

Steve,

My last post on the subject: "Morality" is a concept and code of conduct. You choose your morality, I choose mine. I just believe there are consequences to one's conduct. If you're against dancing, don't dance, etc. But if you're against life, don't kill my child. Re. rape/abortion conundrum: aborting a product of rape is punshing the product. You end up with two victims instead of one.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

man, seems like there are a lot of bitter men in here...

to me it is about responsibility. I have little/no sympathy for the man in this situation. Caveat emptor. You wanna screw, you have to know you might have consequences.

BlueSkyJaunte · 05-03-2005, 01:22 PM

Personal responsibility...what a concept.

Jeff Higgins · 05-03-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JIMCRY
Steve,
Re. rape/abortion conundrum: aborting a product of rape is punshing the product. You end up with two victims instead of one.

Steve, that pretty well sums up my position as well. Please do not add to the tragedy of rape with the murder of an unborn, innocent child.

Nostatic, you view is certainly the predominate one in society. Problem is, it only applies to the man. While I agree with it, I am playing the devil's advocate on this poll. Why are women not held to the same standard? Why does society seem to have sympathy for the woman, but not the man? This is a manifest weakness in men - how many of us could resist (married men asside, hopefully) the wiles of a lovely young lady that has set out to ensnare us? They have all the cards, and ultimately all of the sypathy, on this one.

BlueSkyJaunte · 05-03-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
how many of us could resist (married men asside, hopefully) the wiles of a lovely young lady that has set out to ensnare us?

Are you KIDDING? BTDT, and, for the record, I'm not gay.

lendaddy · 05-03-2005, 01:27 PM

What about this scenerio?

You and the wife try for a child and get pregnant. Wifey gets pissed one night cause you worked late or played cards with the boys. She just goes out and kills your unborn child without your consent. This is a problem to me, maybe I'm weird? I deserve zero say in that?

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
This is a manifest weakness in men - how many of us could resist (married men asside, hopefully) the wiles of a lovely young lady that has set out to ensnare us? They have all the cards, and ultimately all of the sypathy, on this one.

bull****. they may have the cards, but you don't have to play the game. If you chose to (or worse yet, "have to"), then you are weak and deserve what you get.

And I don't see them getting all the "sympathy". Abortion is a terrible option, and the women I know who have chosen that have suffered horribly. Of course it could be that is is quite less than they would have otherwise. And let's look at all the other "sympathy" they get. On average, they earn less money for doing equivalent work. In rape trials they are humiliated and made to feel guilty. And in many cultures, they have almost *no* standing compared to men, and are the equivalent of possessions.

Are there examples where they have advantages? Sure...but on the whole, I think they have a tougher time. But don't play that "oh, those temptresses got me in trouble" crap. The is lame, crybaby, candyass crap.

ubiquity0 · 05-03-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
What about this scenerio?

You and the wife try for a child and get pregnant. Wifey gets pissed one night cause you worked late or played cards with the boys. She just goes out and kills your unborn child without your consent. This is a problem to me, maybe I'm weird? I deserve zero say in that?

I would hope anyone with a relationship that bad / psychotic would have the responsibility to not try & bring a child into it in the first place!!

Any 'wife' that would do that in retaliation for a late night at the office belongs in a mental institution, not bringing up a family, IMO.

Somehow I suspect you have zero fear of ever being in that hypothetical scenario.

lendaddy · 05-03-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ubiquity0
I would hope anyone with a relationship that bad / psychotic would have the responsibility to not try & bring a child into it in the first place!!

Any 'wife' that would do that in retaliation for a late night at the office belongs in a mental institution, not bringing up a family, IMO.

Somehow I suspect you have zero fear of ever being in that hypothetical scenario.

Ohh, less than zero, but my situation is not the point. I also agree that a crazy like that shouldn't breed, but they do. It's a simple legal question, does the man have ANY rights to his unborn child? My example was extreme for a reason.

BlueSkyJaunte · 05-03-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
What about this scenerio?

You and the wife try for a child and get pregnant. Wifey gets pissed one night cause you worked late or played cards with the boys. She just goes out and kills your unborn child without your consent. This is a problem to me, maybe I'm weird? I deserve zero say in that?

I think you need to take a long, hard look at your relationship if you're afraid your wife's going to do that.

Is it me, or did this board suddenly fill up with candyass pansies who can't keep it in their pants???

PS: I credit nostatic with "candyass" -- the perfect term for which I had been looking.

amity914 · 05-03-2005, 01:46 PM

It's family Planning and I definetley believe that the man should have an opinion. I think that Abortion is wrong and I have a hard time with the fact that any woman would kill her own fetus/baby under any circumstance, its almost the same as when a jelous boyfriend kills his ex because if he can't have her, then no one should. What makes me really sad is the so-called "partial birth abortions". I would NEVER choose abortion. I am financially secure in a Life long relationship, and I took family planning very seriously. However, you have women that have been raped, incest and other incidents where it MAY have its place. I cannot make those decisions, but I also believe that there needs to be more support for adoption (i.e. support counseling, clinics and agencies). There also needs to be more support for low income families and teenagers for family planning. A local family had a teenage daughter that went through two adoptions and pregnancies because they would'nt get her on birth controll, instead they prayed to god that she would'nt have sex or get pregnant.

HIEDI

Jeff Higgins · 05-03-2005, 01:51 PM

Boy is this an easy pot to stir. Like I said, I'm merely playing "devil's advocate" here. I am quite conservative in my views on these matters. I was raised to treat women with respect, keep it in my pants, and not whine about my troubles. Especially the ones I've made for myself. Unfortunately, there are many today who do not hold those values. Nostatic, once again I agree with your position. But I am going to keep stirring... It is kind of heartening to hear from men who are adamant about taking responsibility and behaving like men. But then again, we have not heard from some of our most notorious liberals...