Pistol Caliber Recommendations

[ZLP]

Originally posted by RickM
I agree with John.on a starter pistol.

My first pistol was a Stainless Ruger 22. My mistake was to get a tapered barrel as opposed to a Bull (Non-tapered) barrel. The balance with the Bull is much better and enjoyable to shoot.

That said, although the .22 is cheap to shoot I find the .45 much more fun...and quite accurate.


Tapered:





Bull:

If you like those, you will love this: Ruger with the Tatical Solutions Pac Lite upper and supressor...

[jriera]

Zach, I have not manage yet to put the airbox, still too hot in town .. maybe this week. Try to get a box of Aguila IQ's .. 'interesting' effects on chest plates....

Hmmm.. 22 Ruger .. 'prefered tool' for certain profession..

Regarding practice ... only PERFECT practice makes perfect .... Practice for the sake of practice will 'enhance' your mistakes (based on repetition).

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by jyl
I have a hankering for one of these.



Anyone have firsthand (ha ha) experience?

I have one (P7M8) and had the earlier PSP version as well. I've shot 1000's and 1000's of rounds through mine and I carried it for years.

For those unfamiliar with this gun's operation, the front part of the grip moves inward when you squeeze it, holding the firing pin back until released by pulling the trigger. Initial squeeze takes quite a bit of force but it doesn't take much to hold it cocked. If you drop it, it decocks itself before it can hit the floor.

Trivia 1: It was designed initially for the German Police (PSP = Police Service Pistol).
Trivia 2: For some reason the bad guys in movies tend to use P7's. I think the bad guy in the first Die Hard movie used one for example.

Pros: Very accurate, great sights, comfortable to carry in the small of your back. Makes a great concealed carry gun. Safe with little children as it takes quite a bit of hand strength to initially squeeze the cocker.

Cons: The light trigger pull is maybe a bit too light for high stress situations and you can't hold on too it with a death grip and have the "safety" on at the same time. The P7M13 version has 13 rounds and is ergomically very bad IMO - it's like holding a 2x4.
Not good for reloaders because you can't shoot lead bullets (gas port will clog) and even if you use jacked it chucks the shells a looong ways. The recoil is a little smarter than a full sized 9mm.

-Chris

[ZLP]

Originally posted by jriera
Zach, I have not manage yet to put the airbox, still too hot in town .. maybe this week. Try to get a box of Aguila IQ's .. 'interesting' effects on chest plates....

Hmmm.. 22 Ruger .. 'prefered tool' for certain profession..

Regarding practice ... only PERFECT practice makes perfect .... Practice for the sake of practice will 'enhance' your mistakes (based on repetition).

We shoot this ruger in the kitchen it is THAT quiet with the supressor.....

[jyl]

Re the P7, the things that got me interested were:
- The barrel doesn't move (AFAIK), unlike the Glock, 1911, etc where the barrel is tilting and returning with each shot. I shoot most accurately with my Luger and I've always wondered if the fixed barrel has something to do with it.
- The cocking mechanism allows a single-action trigger pull (AFAIK), without an external hammer to be cocked, decocked, and snag.

I keep saying "AFAIK" since I've not had a chance to actually shoot one.

I'm kind of doubtful about the gas operation, speculating that a jammed or blocked gas mechanism would be hard to fix (especially under pressure). Again, this has to be "AFAIK" or maybe "AFAIKAIDKM" (as far as I known and I don't know much).

[jyl]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
I have one (P7M8) and had the earlier PSP version as well. I've shot 1000's and 1000's of rounds through mine and I carried it for years.

For those unfamiliar with this gun's operation, the front part of the grip moves inward when you squeeze it, holding the firing pin back until released by pulling the trigger. Initial squeeze takes quite a bit of force but it doesn't take much to hold it cocked. If you drop it, it decocks itself before it can hit the floor.

Trivia 1: It was designed initially for the German Police (PSP = Police Service Pistol).
Trivia 2: For some reason the bad guys in movies tend to use P7's. I think the bad guy in the first Die Hard movie used one for example.

Pros: Very accurate, great sights, comfortable to carry in the small of your back. Makes a great concealed carry gun. Safe with little children as it takes quite a bit of hand strength to initially squeeze the cocker.

Cons: The light trigger pull is maybe a bit too light for high stress situations and you can't hold on too it with a death grip and have the "safety" on at the same time. The P7M13 version has 13 rounds and is ergomically very bad IMO - it's like holding a 2x4.
Not good for reloaders because you can't shoot lead bullets (gas port will clog) and even if you use jacked it chucks the shells a looong ways. The recoil is a little smarter than a full sized 9mm.

-Chris

Does the cocking process interfere with quickly and accurately taking a shot?

How much force is needed to keep the gun cocked? Can you keep the gun cocked for several minutes without tiring your hand or affecting accuracy?

How reliable is it? In your experience, how many hundreds or thousands of rounds per each malfunction?

Is it easy to field strip and clean? To do a more detailed cleaning?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by jyl
Does the cocking process interfere with quickly and accurately taking a shot?
No, no more than flicking off a safety on a "normal" gun.

How much force is needed to keep the gun cocked? Can you keep the gun cocked for several minutes without tiring your hand or affecting accuracy?
I just tried it on the bathroom scale to check. It takes ~18lbs of force to compress the cocker if you press at the point where your middle finger would be (just below trigger guard). To hold it takes about 3-5lbs.

How reliable is it? In your experience, how many hundreds or thousands of rounds per each malfunction?
I can't ever remember it malfunctioning with factory ammo. I probably put 2-4000 rds through that gun. It was over 10 years ago when I used to shoot it a lot so I could just be forgetting.

Is it easy to field strip and clean? To do a more detailed cleaning?
It's not hard to field strip. Disassembling the slide (down to the firing pin) is no more difficult than most pistols and easier than some as I recall.

-Chris

[austin552]

A Gun Store Owner told me the 9mm I wanted had far to much power for self defense. He said "One shot could shoot through an intruder and into a neighbors home killing their child...

[jriera]

John, the P7 is not considered a 'target' pistol but rather a defense pistol (and a good one), I have done some target shooting with one and works fine after some practice, but is not what it was designed for...

Very easy to field strip and to clean.

PS. No such thing as quick and accurate.

[Shuie]

You could find police trade in P7M8s for under $700 a few years ago. IIRC, they were issued in New Jersey many years ago. These are great guns. My wife keeps one on her nightstand. Even though they are big and heavy for a 9mm they are still a little snappier than most 9mm due to to the fixed barrel.

The gas tube is there to retard the recoil. As far as the gas system jamming up on you I'll bet it gets too hot for you to physically hold before that happens. My only gripe about a P7 is that it literally gets too hot to touch after less than 100 moderately paced rounds at the range.

Just keep in mind that the process of shooting and handling a P7 is slightly different from most other semi autos. Shoot it almost exclusively if its your primary pistol.

Jordi, some of the P7 guns have a Eurpopean mag release in addition to the slide release, right? What kind of an impact do features like this have on training for a new shooter who is trying various pistols?

[competentone]

Originally posted by austin552
A Gun Store Owner told me the 9mm I wanted had far to much power for self defense. He said "One shot could shoot through an intruder and into a neighbors home killing their child...

????

Definitely one of those gun store owners who shouldn't be in the business!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Just a few notes and opinions:

No weapon is effective if it is not kept clean and serviced regularly. Read the owners manual.

IMHO a revolver should fire if the cylinder turns and the hammer is not too light or filed off. They are more reliable than a semi-auto and less likely to jam or misfire. If you do not hit your target in three shots or less then you are less likely to survive the encounter. Most encounters here in the states will have one or two targets at most, 17 round clips are not necessary and add weight that could slow reaction time.

I like the Colt double and single action revolvers in .45 or .357. That is my opinion and is worth just that. The Cobra, Colt .38 Special, is easy to carry, reliable, and point and click in use. I like the design of the Browing Semi-autos as they fit my hands better and seem to be better tooled. The Ruger I used to have worked well for many years and thousands of rounds, it is still going strong. Cleaning is the key. My wife's Glock is her second favourite, never an issue but we keep it very clean.

Hydro-Shocks are supposed to be very good at delivering the energy of one round to the target. The idea is for the round to expend it's energy in your targe. A full metal jacket will continue on to the next item in line.

If concerned about rounds going through walls look into this company: New Tech Ammo ( www.newtechammo.com or steve@newtechammo.com ) Their rounds will not pass the second layer of drywall and they do expend their energy into your target. They have a wide selection of calibres.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by scottmandue
Jeff, you seem to know allot about this stuff and give real good advice, are you in law enforcement? You also seem to have picked the 911 I want to buy some day, a 1972 2.4

Yup; I love that '72 2.4. '72's have always been my favorites for a number of reasons. I looked long and hard and didn't settle for anything else.

Nope, no L.E. here; just an active competitor, hunter, and enthusiast. I have a cousin that's a cop...

Anyway, like some one said earlier, there sure are a lot of opinions being voiced here. I think it boils down to this: there are "fun" guns, and there are "serious" guns.

Fun guns are all the nifty new stuff; the as-yet unproven oddball calibers, action types, materials, and accessories. They are great fun at the range and provide lots of conversation for jaded old gun owners. Unfortunately, the modern "bling" that is put forth in an effort to get old gun owners to buy something new is often attractive to the new gun buyer that doesn't know any better. This stuff is all well and good for the multiple gun-owning hobbyist; they can be very poor choices for the one-gun home defender. Guess which gun the hobbyist reaches for when he suspects trouble, and keeps loaded in the nightstand drawer? The old tried-and true, or the new wonder gun? Don't get me wrong - I love the new stuff and love to tinker and play with it, but it has its place. At the range, in the gravel pit, maybe even hunting. But when it comes to me and my family, the nifty new stuff goes away and the old warhorses come out.

[targa911S]

Originally posted by skipdup
Either a Walther PPK/S or Kel-Tec P3AT, both in .380, are used if I want to carry/conceal.

I'm specifically looking for a NO-like disaster weapon. Carrying nor concealing are a concern. Though, I would like the added rounds capacity of a semi-auto.

- Skip

I would recommend a Walther PP in .380, instead of a PPK/S. A LOT more reliable weapon. Ask me how I know. Also buy a GERMAN Walther, NOT a smith/walther. French (Manhaunin) are good too, but German is best.

For home defense...12 ga. No doubt.

[skipdup]

Originally posted by targa911S
I would recommend a Walther PP in .380, instead of a PPK/S. A LOT more reliable weapon. Ask me how I know. Also buy a GERMAN Walther, NOT a smith/walther. French (Manhaunin) are good too, but German is best.

For home defense...12 ga. No doubt.

My Walther simply does not jam, unless I limp wrist. Not sure which one it is (other than it is an "S"), but it is well broken in.

Already have Remington 870 12 ga for home.

- Skip

[targa911S]

Originally posted by skipdup
My Walther simply does not jam, unless I limp wrist. Not sure which one it is (other than it is an "S"), but it is well broken in.

Already have Remington 870 12 ga for home.

- Skip

Well worn is the key to Walthers I believe. My PPK/S was an Interarms piece made in the U.S. (Georgia?) It was a total POS. I put 1000 rounds of every kind of ammo through it and it still jammed, piped, and misfed. I sent it to S&W who was doing the work for all Walther warrenty and they sent it back sayig it met their specs. I'm glad you got a good one. If James Bond had owned mine it would have been a short movie! I DO love the look and feel of the PPK, PPK/S and PP guns. The PP was the original police gun so when I found this one, made in Ulm, in the box, I thought I would try Walther again. This one is like yours. Works every time.

[pbs911]

What ever caliper you can shoot the best provides the best protection. I have a 9mm, .40 cal., 357 Mag, .45 Cal, and 12 guage. I can group with 1" with the .40 at 10 yards so that is my most effective stopping firearm. Aside from the 12 guage.

[targa911S]

1" at 30 feet?? I won't be messin' wit you!

[nostatic]

Jeez Paul, I seem to recall it wasn't too long ago that you posted asking about getting *a* gun. Now you've got an aresenal and evidently have been practicing

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by targa911S
Well worn is the key to Walthers I believe. My PPK/S was an Interarms piece made in the U.S. (Georgia?) It was a total POS. I put 1000 rounds of every kind of ammo through it and it still jammed, piped, and misfed. I sent it to S&W who was doing the work for all Walther warrenty and they sent it back sayig it met their specs. I'm glad you got a good one. If James Bond had owned mine it would have been a short movie! I DO love the look and feel of the PPK, PPK/S and PP guns. The PP was the original police gun so when I found this one, made in Ulm, in the box, I thought I would try Walther again. This one is like yours. Works every time.

If (my crappy) memory serves, one of the British royal family's body guards took a bullet in the liver after his PPK jammed.
My father told me that after chambering a round, removing the PPK magazine and pushing the top bullet towards the back of the magazine was said to improve it's reliability.
-Chris