Pistol Caliber Recommendations

[Jeff Higgins]

I would never stake my life, nor the lives of my loved ones, on something unusual or trendy. In other words, I want something that I know I can find ammo for in a crunch. .45 auto, .357 mag, 9mm; stuff like that. Forget the trendy b.s. calibers like .357 Sig, the new shorter .45 auto, and that kind of crap. They are great for the hobbyst shooter, but you sure as hell will have a harder time finding ammo for any of those in NO today than for the more mainstream stuff.

There is also a lot to be said for proven designs in firearms themselves. 1911's have been around longer than any of us. So have your basic Smith and Wesson wheelguns in a variety of frame sizes to suit caliber. For something that you will really have to use in an emergency, as opposed to just play with at a range, that counts for a lot in my book. Leave this year's "latest innovations" for fun; when it gets serious, dig out yesterday's proven performers.

One more word about calibers: bigger is ALWAYS better. You say concealment is not an issue; you have guns for that. The only reason for small caliber sidearms is concealment. That said, don't go as far as to get into hunting handguns for defense. Again, look to the past - .45's have quite a sterling reputation; everything else is measured against them.

So where does this all point? 1911 .45 auto. Proven track record and ammo is available at any 7-11. Don't dick around and get caught up in what amounts to an enthusiasts' debate over trendy calibers and guns. Go with what has worked for darn near one hundred years. No other tool; no other mechanical device, can say it has remained the best tool for the job for as long as the 1911 .45. There is a lot to be said for that.

[ChrisBennet]

Jeff speaks with wisdom.

The 1911 (with the right trigger) has relatively small grips making it usable for people with smaller hands like myself or a woman. Some other .45's or high capacity 9mm's can be a little too fat for good gripping.

That said, the .45 is not an easy gun to master (a little like a certain car we're extremely fond of) and you should be prepared to invest some time shooting in order to become proficient. Before I shot a .45 for the first time I was used to shooting a case (1000rds) of of 9mm over the course of a summer. Even with all that shooting I was surprised at the recoil of the .45.

If you aren't prepared to practice that much and your hands are big enough, you can miss a lot with a hi capacity 9mm.
-Chris

[skipdup]

Awesome advise. Thanks!

My hands are large (at least a wear a large glove size), so I will probably go with a full frame gun. Both my wife and I have rented a variety of guns in the past, and we both have seen much more accuracy with full-sized frames. It's surprising, b/c my wife and her hands are small. But, the proof is on/in the paper.

Jeff (along with everyone else) brings up some very good points. Ammo availability is a concern I'm thinking seriously about. 9MM, being the NATO round is high on the list for that reason, but I really want bigger. .45 is high on the list as well.

I have to admit I'm intrigued by the .357 Sig. I know it's newer/trendy, but it seems like many LE agencies have been incorporating, plus the Secrete Service. Seems like that would help in the availability. Plus, I keep reading articles that praise it's accuracy and stopping power. While I firmly believe in "proven track records", I also know that sometimes newer innovations can sometimes be better.

I'm probably putting way too much thought into this, like I do everything else. But, I want to make sure my next additions to my collection are the right ones.

Also, I may just arm my wife... the girl can shoot!

- Skip

[FrayAdjacent911]

9mm is probably one of the best all around pistol cartridges right now.

Cheap FMJ for practice, and high capacity pistols means lots of practice. Practice is good. Shooting a pistol accurately isn't really that easy.

For a beginner, I think the above factors are the greatest ones, in addition to moderate recoil.

Also modern defensive loads have come a LONG way in the last couple decades. 9mm isn't the impotent little round it used to be!

[tabs]

My Neighbor is a Tactical OPERATOR Nutjob....he has all the gear....and has taken all the training in self defense and shooting you can imagine...he works security up at the Test Site...and there he gets to play with the Big Boys Toys....

Anyway he was a Glock Lover...45, 40 and Nine....it was Glock this and Glock that...but when he shot the 1911 45 ACP that was it for him...he can control the 1911 better and the Trigger pull is SUPERIOR...Up at the Site he is issued a SIG which he HATES...

His other choichs are.....AR15 M4, Aresnal AK47 with Collapsable stock, and a HK91.....

[tabs]

Back in the day...the FBI used to carry 3 1/2 inch S&W model 27's.....after U ran outa ammo U could use the thing as a club...

[Shuie]

.357 SIG

Neat cartridge. I was a big fan when it first came out. Bottleneck design makes it inherently reliable in most guns. Its a handful and will get your attention at the range. Its built on a short case and works best in smaller framed semi autos. Its also basically impossible to reload, expensive, not always easy to find. If you are into numbers on paper, the ballistics and penetration qualities are impressive, but its arguably over pressured and built on too weak of a shell case.

.45 ACP
Probably one of the most versatile pistol cartridges there is. Widely available practice ammo and self defense loads in various bullets weights and velocities

I totally agree with what Chris Bennett and others have said about a 1911 in .45 and would like to add the following: Dont start shooting a 1911 unless you are prepared to practice with and shoot it almost exclusively. 50-100rds of 230gr .45ACP can seem like work to a new shooter. Its just not the easiest gun for a new shooter to learn to operate and maintain. Once you learn it you wont settle for anything else, but it takes some work to get there.

[Shuie]

Originally posted by nostatic
this does look like a nice one:

http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704531

While I would hesitate to recommend a 1911 and full power 230gr loads to a new shooter, I think the lighter .45 ACP loads in a gun like the USP compact are no more difficult to shoot than .40/.357 Sig. Not that you couldnt shoot the full power stuff if you wanted to. The H&K semi autos that I have shot or owned would function on any ammo you put in them.

If its on the DOJ approved list, the USP compact in .45 ACP makes a lot of sense in CA since the citizens there are still limited to a 10rd capacity. Its a slightly bigger gun than the 9mm/.40/.357 version, but its only noticeable when they are side by side. The 8rd magazines are also steel for the .45 compact instead of polymer like on the smaller calibers if that mattters. Neat guns.

[nostatic]

So for a new shooter, what are all of the criteria/issues?

1. stopping power (this thread seems to address that)
2. range practice/cost of ammo
3. ease of cleaning
4. being able to "handle" size/kick/etc
5. availability of ammo
6. ?

[tabs]

Yur #6 should be accuracy...the 1911 has been used by Target Shooters since the late 20's...and nothing has really come out to top the venerable 1911.

[Shuie]

2,4,1,3.

6 will follow 2 naturally and 2 will be determined by 5.

I think I just confused myself

[Jeff Higgins]

New shooters should always start with a .22. Get one in the same configuration that you plan on having your defensive weapon in - i.e. revolver or auto; same general size and weight, etc. Many full-size defensive sidearms have counterparts chambered in .22. Learn to shoot the .22. A brick a week through it at first would be a minimum. Once you are comfortable and familiar with it, decide on a full size sidearm.

As an asside, you can certainly defend yourself with a .22. Nobody wants to get shot by anything, even a .22. I hear it hurts like hell. The intimidation factor is still there; once a sidearm is presented, if there is time and opportunity, most people will retreat. A large majority of self-defense incedents result in no shots being fired. If forced to do so with a .22, aim for the face.

One last point - how good of a shot do you have to be, and how accurate does your sidearm have to be, to defend yourself? Not very, in either case. The vast majority of defensive shooting happens at knife fighting range. Familiarity with the sidearm, and the speed an confidence that instills, is vastly more important than mechanical accuracy of the gun or target range ability of the shooter. Deciding to do it is the most important part - most people can't believe "it's really happening to me" and hesitate. Decisiveness wins the day; not accuracy. Any modern defensive arm from a reputable manufacturer is more accurate than you need. Forget that as a criteria. Here is my list:

1. Reliability

2. Reliability

3. Reliability

4. Common ammo

5. Stopping power (i.e. large caliber)

[jyl]

Oh, gratuitous blurry pic of mine:



Affordable, extremely reliable, simpler than any other semi-auto, comfortable to shoot, lots of accessories, and half the cops in America can't be too wrong. Not much in the jewelry department, though.

Edit: I think there's a .22 conversion kit too.

[nostatic]

so...

http://www.waltheramerica.com/p22.htm

http://www.impactguns.com/store/S-MOS-22-B.html

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=10104&return=Y

[jyl]

Why are you looking at .22s? Why not a 9mm with a .22 conversion option?

[nostatic]

well, its a lot cheaper to buy a .22 as opposed to a 9mm and a conversion kit.

[ZLP]

Originally posted by thomas682
[B]Round placement is as important, if not more so, than caliber or round energy/grain wt.

Your specific and/or situational applications should be the second factor in caliber choice as a .40 cal will perform better at 60 meters than a .45 - though a .45 will transfer more energy/knockdown at 10 meters. In a true CQB tactical application I prefer a .45 cal on a 1911 frame (Kimber) or a Sig P220. For general all purpose type CCW I prefer a Sig P239 in .40cal - reliable, safe and lightweight.

60 meters???? LOL You will NEVER shoot anything at 60 meters with ANY pistol. 90% of self defense shotting happen at 22ft. or less.

[SLO-BOB]

Ruger makes a model 45/22 (or something like that). It is built to approximate the heft and trigger feel of the 1911 but fire a 22 round. I've never owned one, but I have fired them on occasion. To me they were harder to control than an actual 45 because the barrel was a bit lighter and the trigger a lot heavier than any of my 45s. I didn't like it. I own a Browning Challenger (Belgium FN made 22) which use for practice. I have found no problem transistioning from that to any of my guns including the 45.

Different people have different needs and styles. As usual, lots of good advice here, but not all of it for everyone. I think the best way to choose a gun and round is to spend time with them. I would select from the most readily available ammo choices and the most well made firearms. Then I would buy the biggest gun (round) that I can control. A well placed 22 round is far more effective than a missed 45 round. However, to me, the Kimber 45 is the ultimate auto. Reliable, controllable, comfortable (relatively speaking)and accurate. I'm not a fan of the 9mm because I feel one should not have to defend the stopping power of one's gun. I've had a number of them, mind you. Hi-Powers, 92fs, Glocks, but my favorite was the CZ 75. Great gun, but I couldn't get past the ammo. Too many "survival" stories.

As far as capacity-do you really need more than 6 or 7 shots? As far as range-do you really need a gun that's accurate beyond 10 feet? I believe the answer in most civilian cases to both questions is "No."

Re: ease of use-The hardest guns I had to shoot were my Glock 23-light with bad trigger feel and lots of muzzle jump, and My stock Colt Officers 45-short butt and barrel + big bore = quite a handful, and the above mentioned Ruger 22. Easiest-Challenger 22, CZ 75, S&W 629 (using 44 special loads-this is my ultimate home defense combo btw)).

Re: reliability-Why would anyone buy an unreliable design? Stick with the good stuff and they all function pretty well. Always keep them clean and maintained. Reliability isn't an option-it's like buying a car with the tires.

Re: availability-There are some weird rounds out there that are decent. But, I choose 45, 38, 44 and 22 just because the ammo manufacturers all make them and the developement of ammo is usually done there first. But-there are other good rounds for sure. You should be able to find anything you are looking for-the apocalyptic mindset of scarcity not withstanding. If that's what your concern is-learn to bow hunt.

So my list for home defense would go more like this-

1. accuracy

2. stopping power

To me, nothing else factors.

[Mule]

Gold Cups don't go for $1500 and up for no reason. IMHO 45acp is the best all round caliber. I disagree that it takes a lot of experience to handle one. Compact 45s are a handful. A Gold Cup or other quality full size 45 will be deadly accurate immediately.

[Shuie]

.22s are great and there is a lot of value in being able to shoot thousands of .22 rounds for next to no cost, but this shoud never take the place of practicng with real full weight ammo.