"Conservative" Freedom?

[legion]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Why is it so hard to understand that just because I dissaprove of their choices, it does not mean that I hate or fear them? Why do gays feel they have to hide behind that accusation?

I had an RA in college who was gay. Whenever you disagreed with him in any way, shape, or form, he would abruptly kill the discussion by saying: "You just hate me because I'm gay." Had a victim complex if I've ever seen one.

Funny thing is, the lady who ran the dorm I lived in had hand picked gay RAs for each floor...to teach us "tolerance".

It was that year in college that I learned that "tolerance" really means "blind acceptance".

Here's a quick guide to some other terms used on this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=255363&highlight=tolerance

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by nostatic
r i g h t

Kids learn discrimination at home. You can bet the kid piped up because he's heard dad pissing and moaning about, "those damn Mexicans..."

You brought up parenting and indicated that it should be responsible for teaching tolerance. My example illustrates that maybe we need some other sources...

I see, so because you saw an example of poor parenting on your vacation you think the government should mandate what all children are taught and override the other few billion parents...

Sounds perfectly logical.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I see, so because you saw an example of poor parenting on your vacation you think the government should mandate what all children are taught and override the other few billion parents...

Sounds perfectly logical.

people on this board extrapolate from n=1 all the time. And if you think this is an isolated incident, I would say you are naive.

To paraphrase a bumper sticker (you know us lefties love our bumper stickers): hate is not a family value.

And from the mouths of babes come the ugly reality of parental bias and bile.

You may be a great parent. I would offer that you are an outlyer.

[nostatic]

Jeff, from one of the sources your cited:

"Some gays, lesbians and bisexuals resort to substances as a means to numb the feelings of being different, to relieve emotional pain or to reduce inhibitions about their sexual feelings. Substance abuse often begins in early adolescence when youth first begin to struggle with their sexual orientation. When surrounded by messages telling you are wrong and sick for who you are, eventually you begin to believe it. Having to hide your identity and deal with homophobic comments and attitudes-- often made by unknowing friends and family -- can have a profound effect on you. Lesbians and gay men are also 7 times more likely to be the victims of crimes than the average citizen (National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, 1984). In response to this overwhelming oppression and homophobia, many lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals use alcohol and drugs to cope.

Homophobia in our society has limited the opportunities for gays and lesbians to meet each other safely. The gay bar culture emerged as a place to find other gays and lesbians without fear of harassment. The gay bar is a seductive institution. It is the most available place where people can explore being gay and socialize. There is also a lack of alternative alcohol-free places and occasions to socialize within the gay community. This only intensifies the implied connection between drinking and socializing in gay and lesbian social circles."

So tell me that society and homophobia aren't part of the root causes here.

I know I'm not going to change your mind. And I don't have an issue with you thinking gay is "wrong." But I do have a problem with that belief being codified by the government.

[RPKESQ]

Jeff, did you read any of these sites or just do a quick and dirty Google?

If you read them then you would find out that the leading cause or drug abuse among gays is the lack of social acceptance and the pressures that it causes. (Back to gay bashers and homophobes).

Gays have a drug problem. Uhh, so do professional athletes, straights, alcoholics, priests and police. Alright I can see why it so bad that gays have it, but not the others. Ohh, wait, your not saying it's OK for the others too. Well, then just lump gays in with people who have a drug problem. No more, no less.

Risky behavior is personal choice. That includes all risks, even if it has a high disease risk. Unprotected sex is the number one cause for teen pregnancies and the spread of STDs in the heterosexual community (by the way, did you know that the largest growing population of newly infected HIV is heterosexuals). Why are you singling out gays for this activity?

Now let’s touch on the claim that gay relationships are unstable. Do you mean more unstable than heterosexuals? Want to try getting figures for that? I thought not. The pressures that gays face are much greater than heterosexuals face for their relationships (many studies of this) and yet they still do better. I know those nasty homos are getting more sex than you, but so did most of our sports stars (who had boasted about 10,000 women laid?). Why aren’t we trying to stop them nasty sports stars?

As for parenting, I suppose the views that Rick has posted about gays are prime examples of good parenting leading to tolerance and acceptance? Not hardly! No, you can protest about how “gays are throwing it in your face” and that “your views need to be respected”, but it all comes down to intolerance and bigotry, mostly hiding behind the face of religion. What hypocrisy! If parenting was so great, then why do we still have bigotry and hatred?

All of these proposed arguments highlight only one thing, your intolerance and bigotry.

[snowman]

The thing that all of this discussion neglects to mention is RESPECT. Respect is the foundation for the American government. It was the foundation for the Indian nations forms of government, on which our government is based. The magna carta is important, but the fundamental difference between americans and europeans is still the Indian influence.

Respect dictates that if a minority, say homos, and they know they are a minority, need to respect the view that the majority thinks they are perverts, disgusting, sinners. The majority needs to respect the homos for their views. The logical conclusion is that the homos lay low, and the majority overlooks the homos and lets them be. The problem arises when the homos want to shove their views down the majorities throat. Once they try to do this, they deserve all the retribution that they earned. Each side must back off and RESPECT the rights of the other, not only the rights, but the relative position in society, that is they, the homos, must not try to elevate themselves to a level that they know is not acceptable in general. In return society needs to overlook the presence of the homos. That’s the American way.

[Moneyguy1]

Shouldn't respect work both ways or are you advocating a "might is right" form of society? That minorities have no rights? That minorities should hide in the shadows? Who defines what is a minority? Doesn't just about everyone belong to one kind of minority or another?

Just trying to understand what your point is......

[snowman]

A minoritys rights do not trump the rights of the majority. Each position must respect their relative influence.

If a huge majority thinks a certain way of life is best, society must respect this view and concede to it. Yet the majority must also have a live and let live attitude toward the minority. Another way to state this is to KNOW YOUR PLACE and stay within it. One can do otherwise, but only at the expense fo social harmony, and order.

Social harmony and order comes at a cost. That cost is minor compared to the alternative.

RESPECT is the difference between the european ways and the AMERICAN ways. That is the most basic lesson that has been passed down to many generations of americans.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by snowman
That’s the American way.

no, that's the white male fearful way and has zero to do with respect. And while we're at it, let's keep those uppity women in their place. Oh yeah, and the colored folk too.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by snowman
The majority needs to respect the homos for their views. The logical conclusion is that the homos lay low, and the majority overlooks the homos and lets them be. The problem arises when the homos want to shove their views down the majorities throat.

Despite whatever fantasies you may be harboring deep inside. I'm pretty sure there are very few "homos" who want to shove anything down your throat.

[snowman]

Nothing to do with male or female. Thats a total perversion of respect and has nothing to do with the american way. I don't think the Indians think of themselves as white guys.

Knowing your place has far more meanings than the racial or sexual ones.

If your a janitor you are not a brain surgeon, an editor is not the President of the USA, and so forth.

[Moneyguy1]

"King","Servant", "Master", "Serf", "Vassal"..They all knew their place.....

Sounds like a reversion to the Middle Ages.....

[snowman]

No, just social order.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by snowman
No, just social order.

with the white heterosexual (alledgedly) male on top.

so to speak...

[snowman]

I take the bottom when I feel like it.

[bryanthompson]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I am not for prayer in school, I am not for teaching kids that homosexuality is a sin in school, I am not for teaching that premarital sex is a sin in school. I think school should teach kids how to read, write, add, and subtract. They should teach kids what the capital of Montana is and how to speak german, latin, french or spanish. I think they should teach them history and music.

I'm for teaching reading, writing, history, and math in school. Once they can prove they can handle teaching those minimal skills, maybe we can consider adding others.

If you can't do one thing well, you might as well do a lot of things poorly.

[Moneyguy1]

Social Order is a phrase which finds considerable use in fascist and communist style states. It implies a static situation in the sense that the ruling class rules and every one else obeys.

Am I reading you correctly?

[snowman]

After thinking about it for a while. So what if the White heterosexual male is on top? THats probably the fact or truth. Recogizing the reality of the situation is the key to dealing with reality, not hallucinating about what you think it should be. If White hetrosexual males are say 90 percent of the total, and the rest 10 percent, thats just the way it is. Knowing this the 10 percent should step back and say we know we are a minority, we will keep it low key if you respect us. The majority keeps it low, out of respect for the views of the minority.

BUT if that minority pushes its views, into the face of the majority, against the will of the majority, and insists that the majority accept their views...they show no respect for the view of the majority, as a consequence, the majority has the right, the obligaiton to squash the view of the minority. The reason, the minoritys lack of respect for the majority.

Respect is such a simple concept, yet few get it.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by snowman


Respect is such a simple concept, yet few get it.

so is irony

[snowman]

Did you know that women are the number one cause of wars?

Wars fought over or caused by women, by men. Women the root cause of war???

Men fight wars, women cause them.

Don't be to quick to answer this, check your facts first.

As to respect, THINK about your answers, really think about them, don't just cite common hoopla, you may change your mind. If you spend less than 2 or 3 days, just thinking about respect, you are not thinking. Just ONE word, sounds simple. But really think, it isn't simple.