"Conservative" Freedom?

[Taz's Master]

Statistically, is having a traditional family (married parents biological children family unit) a positive or negative indicator for academic achievement, teen pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, sense of well-being? Should society encourage or discourage this family structure?

Nostatic, your argument seems to be that parents do such a bad job parenting that the gov't. needs to step in and help. Should this extend to censoring tv content? Maybe the stereotyopes embraced by the products of bad parenting come from what is presented to them (unfiltered by parental wisdom) on television. If the gov't. is going to assume the responsibility of parenting, then it needs to address censoring entertainment content (in regards to its moral impact on children viewers), something that has been relegated to parents.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by snowman
Another way to state this is to KNOW YOUR PLACE and stay within it. One can do otherwise, but only at the expense fo social harmony, and order.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by nostatic
people on this board extrapolate from n=1 all the time. And if you think this is an isolated incident, I would say you are naive.

To paraphrase a bumper sticker (you know us lefties love our bumper stickers): hate is not a family value.

And from the mouths of babes come the ugly reality of parental bias and bile.

You may be a great parent. I would offer that you are an outlyer.

You know, I think you are on to something here.

I heard about a guy who checked out a book on communism from the library a few months ago and was plotting a terrorist attack. Of course! We should ban all people from reading books which the gubmint thinks aren't good for them.

I also notice there are obese people in the world who eat nothing but fast food. Ah Ha!! We should just ban all restaurants who's nutritional content is not up to government standards. While we're at it, how about a mandatory exercise program for all citizens? I know a couple people who just don't exercise at all.

Where else can we make things better?? Oh!! I got it. I hear on the news every night that people are killing other people with guns. Let's ban all guns from the populace!! That'll solve the problem...

[techweenie]

Originally posted by snowman
Did you know that women are the number one cause of wars?

Spanky: Let's start a club right now. The He-man Woman-haters. I'll be president.
Alfalfa And I'll be second president, and you can be third president.
Buckwheat Thanks.
Spanky Alright, get up and do exactly what I do. Put your hand on your heart, and raise your other hand. We, the He-man Woman-haters club...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat We, the he-man woman-haters club...
Spanky ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Spanky ...because girls are the bunk.
Alfalfa and Buckwheat ...because girls are the bunk.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
You know, I think you are on to something here.

I heard about a guy who checked out a book on communism from the library a few months ago and was plotting a terrorist attack. Of course! We should ban all people from reading books which the gubmint thinks aren't good for them.

I also notice there are obese people in the world who eat nothing but fast food. Ah Ha!! We should just ban all restaurants who's nutritional content is not up to government standards. While we're at it, how about a mandatory exercise program for all citizens? I know a couple people who just don't exercise at all.

Where else can we make things better?? Oh!! I got it. I hear on the news every night that people are killing other people with guns. Let's ban all guns from the populace!! That'll solve the problem...

well, the first one is almost happening (hello, Patriot act). So I assume you want that dealt with too?

For number two, yes, exercise should be mandatory in school. Real exercise. And some sort of military/social service should be also.

As for number 3, that is just silly. We all know bullets kill people, not guns

Look, I was trying to make a point. You just don't agree with the sentiment. That's fine. But perhaps you don't think racism, sexism and unfairness are issues in our society. I do. If you do think they are issues, you think that parents are capable of addressing all the issues at home. From my anecdotal evidence (and some of the comments on this board) I do not. So we agree to disagree...

[RPKESQ]

Wow, I needed to leave for a while and I missed Snowmans Fourth Reich diatribe. Simply amazing how you can subtitute the name of the group (gays) under discussion with any of the other names of oppressed people (Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, etc.) in the world (dating back to at least the pre Grecian Period) and all of these statements read the same. I guess hatred and bigotry never changes.

I love the one about how "women cause all the wars". Really, back that whopper up, snowman. I dare you to.

And now we know how respectful snowman really is to women, blacks, gays, etc. Complete BS this "knowing your social position". Respect needs to be earned, and snowman has never learned or earned it.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by nostatic
But perhaps you don't think racism, sexism and unfairness are issues in our society. I do. If you do think they are issues, you think that parents are capable of addressing all the issues at home. From my anecdotal evidence (and some of the comments on this board) I do not. So we agree to disagree...

Of course racism, sexism and unfairness are issues, always have been. The difference is that I think it is MY job to raise my kids and teach them right and wrong. You think it is the government's job to raise my kids. I couldn't disagree more.

See, here's the problem. The liberals in this country have been waging a war against the traditional family for decades. They have succeeded in many ways. So now, we have single parent families, no parent families, homosexual parent families, etc. Heck, a person who believes in a marriage under God between a man and a woman for life is now labeled a religious nut. Because of this, our society is seeing their children's behavior degrade and the adults who are the products of these new wave households are dysfunctional. Instead of supporting the upstanding parents in this country, the libs are now saying that since some parents suck the gubmint should just take over parenting. Good luck with that. In the meantime keep your dirty paws off my kids.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
The only victims are the homosexuals themselves, who are victimized by self righteous, religious bigots who want their narrow-minded views to be everyone’s view.

It is not by random chance that you write this. It is a very though-out, intentional push to FORCE, yes force, acceptance of a small viewpoint on the rest of us. It is a simple strategy really. One that will guarantee success.

1. Create a victim. Oh how we are being wronged by society.
This will give you the golden civil liberties angle. Anyone that
would dare voice an opposing opinion gets discarded as being
an oppressor.

2. Remove any responsibility for the "victim's" position.
Use the ole 'we can't help the way we were born' to
silence anyone would point out that it might be a choice
and as such bear responsibility.

3. Portray the opposing view as being religiously motivate.
This way when anyone even dares to say they do not agree
with you, immediately cry fowl. They are pushing their religion
on society.

The end goal is to make it politically, socially, and if possible criminally unacceptable to even voice an opposing view. The slightest sign of someone holding the opinion that it is wrong is NOT meet with open-minded, lets discuss but instead rush to the attach with cries of "self righteous, religious bigots who want their narrow-minded views to be everyone’s view."

Case in point. Focus on the Family here in CS makes a statement and instead of being open-minded to other viewpoint, there is organized a march from Denver to their building to protest their intolerance. Now I get stuck having to listen to some stupid moo'ing dog commercial on every radio station almost every break in an effort to show that we really are tolerant.

There is really no desire to have any kind of “discussion” or “acceptance”. It is a smoke-screen used only to foster this perception that the other view is evil.

[RPKESQ]

Remember:

Dirty paws on kids is the sole responsiblity of the priest.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by nostatic
r i g h t

Kids learn discrimination at home. You can bet the kid piped up because he's heard dad pissing and moaning about, "those damn Mexicans..."

You brought up parenting and indicated that it should be responsible for teaching tolerance. My example illustrates that maybe we need some other sources...

You really fail to see the irony of your example don't you? You make a snap judgment of this family. "You can bet..." Without knowing any of the facts or details, you attribute it to intolerance? Why because they used the un-PC term Mexicans? Maybe they had mullets and "looked" a certain way?

[Moneyguy1]

Yes...well put. We have evolved into a society of victims with no one taking personal responsibility for their actions. It is always the fault of something or someone else. "I wasn't loved as a kid", "I was born this way", "You hate me because I am (fill in the blank)" And so on. This even morphs into politics: "The (again fill in the blank) are responsible. It is their fault. They are to blame."

A government that attempts to become all things to all people eventually becomes nothing to anyone.

[RPKESQ]

By the way opposing viewpoints are protected, no matter how off course, by the Bill of Rights. You know, that really important document that doesn't mention god?

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
By the way are protected, no matter how off course, by the Bill of Rights. You know, that really important document that doesn't mention god?

Which is why you accuse them (anyone who dares state their opposing viewpoint) of being in violation of the "victims" civil liberties. Sorta trumps the above.....

I love how you try to work the religious persecution angle

[MichiganMat]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Of course racism, sexism and unfairness are issues, always have been. The difference is that I think it is MY job to raise my kids and teach them right and wrong. You think it is the government's job to raise my kids. I couldn't disagree more.

See, here's the problem. The liberals in this country have been waging a war against the traditional family for decades. They have succeeded in many ways. So now, we have single parent families, no parent families, homosexual parent families, etc. Heck, a person who believes in a marriage under God between a man and a woman for life is now labeled a religious nut. Because of this, our society is seeing their children's behavior degrade and the adults who are the products of these new wave households are dysfunctional. Instead of supporting the upstanding parents in this country, the libs are now saying that since some parents suck the gubmint should just take over parenting. Good luck with that. In the meantime keep your dirty paws off my kids.

So there weren't any broken homes in any other part of the world, its just the Liberals in Americas fault? I don't get what you're saying. Maybe if we "encouraged" tradtional homes (which really means shaming divorce doesn't it?) that families would stay together more?

Dude, have you ever been to Utah? Ever spent any time with die-hard Catholics? Parents who hate eachother stay together "for the sake of the kids" and do nothing but show their children how miserable it is to be an adult, not to mention that there are social rules in the world that are more important that being happy.

For some families, mine included, divorce is the best thing that ever happened to them.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad


See, here's the problem. The liberals in this country have been waging a war against the traditional family for decades. They have succeeded in many ways. So now, we have single parent families, no parent families, homosexual parent families, etc. Heck, a person who believes in a marriage under God between a man and a woman for life is now labeled a religious nut. Because of this, our society is seeing their children's behavior degrade and the adults who are the products of these new wave households are dysfunctional. Instead of supporting the upstanding parents in this country, the libs are now saying that since some parents suck the gubmint should just take over parenting. Good luck with that. In the meantime keep your dirty paws off my kids.

So liberals are to blame for single parent families? Wow. I never realized. Do you really think that? I suppose you do.

I don't want my paws on your kids. The unfortunate fact is that the schools have become the de facto "parent" for a variety of reasons. Do you really think the schools want that? I can tell you they don't.

Here is another reality. No matter how much we kick and scream, the world changes. Society changes. The moral compass shifts. And the balance of power in society moves. I think one of the main issues is that for many years in this country the "traditional" WASP family has ruled the roost. But as we have evolved (or devolved, depending on your viewpoint), more divergent ways of living have become more accepted. Part of that is due to influx of different cultures. This is a direct threat to the primacy of the WASP family unit. And they are pushing back. It is to be expected. So the battle ensues. And people become increasingly fearful and hostile.

The problem as I see it is that we fear change. But change is the only thing that you can count on. We have an attachment to our current (actually our past) way of life. And we hold on for dear life. And that guarantees that we will be miserable. And angry. And frustrated.

[Moneyguy1]

I generally agree with mat.

Perhaps some groups are simply better at hiding their dysfunctional aspects.

A friend of mine once said: "All is not well behind every white picket fence you see."

Appearances can be deceiving.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Yes...well put. We have evolved into a society of victims with no one taking personal responsibility for their actions.

OK, I admit it. It's my fault. Everything. You name it - I started it and I'm the cause of it continuing. I accept all the blame. :>)

Did anyone watch "30 Days" last night with the atheist woman living with the fundamentalist Christians for a month? Interesting. Like PPOT on TV.

Mike

[nostatic]

Originally posted by tobster1911
You really fail to see the irony of your example don't you? You make a snap judgment of this family. "You can bet..." Without knowing any of the facts or details, you attribute it to intolerance? Why because they used the un-PC term Mexicans? Maybe they had mullets and "looked" a certain way?

They didn't have mullets...my detective work required a bit more effort

I'll grant you the irony. But sadly I've seen/heard too many conversations just like this. And I've been around for some of the follow-on. And it isn't pretty. Being a native southern californian, I've been around this issue (and these conversations) all my life. And it has gotten appreciably worse over the last 10 years or so.

I stand by my core point: discrimination and hatred is learned at home. From the parents. The belief systems are passed on. I applaud those parents who try to present a balanced view of the world to their kids. But it is very difficult to do. Judging from the hatred and fear I see just on this board, I think that kids today are getting some very angry messages in the home. And that is sad.

[Moneyguy1]

What is that song from South Pacific?


"You have to be taught how to hate..."You have to be carefully taught...."

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by nostatic
you don't think racism, sexism and unfairness are issues in our society. I do. If you do think they are issues, you think that parents are capable of addressing all the issues at home. From my anecdotal evidence (and some of the comments on this board) I do not. So we agree to disagree...

Of course it does, the dems need it to keep people down, they are the ones telling other that they can't succeed without government help because the are black or a woman and anytime some one suggest judging by abilities, liberal scream that it isn't fair!! Why do liberal think blacks and woman aren't capable of succeeding with out them?? Why should some one get special rights because how they like to have sex?? I should get a tax break if I live & support 2 or 3 20 year big breasted Hooters Girls, I chose to do that, why can't I get a tax & other special government treatment??