"Conservative" Freedom?

[Nathans_Dad]

First, I never said that liberals are responsible for all single parent homes. Good grief, try to not jump to hyperbole quite so quickly...

Second, those of you who think that the schools should be parenting our kids continue to use the excuse that some of the families in the country suck. That's true. Guess what? Some families will ALWAYS suck. Is that an excuse for taking away parental responsibility? Some children do need the school to take a larger role in their lives because of a poor home life. I'm fine with that. I am NOT fine with the school mandating that MY kids will sit through liberal indoctrination sessions just because little Bobby's dad is a drunken bigot. Once you start deciding what is right and wrong for someone to think or teach their kids, it is just a little tiny jump to fascism.

I'm honestly shocked that many of you who are vehemently against gun control and don't want the gubmint telling you what you can look at on the internet or read in a library or watch on TV are lining up at the window to have the gubmint take over what we can teach our children.

[MichiganMat]

I was walking to lunch yesterday and was thinking about this liberal/conservative dichotomy and it dawned on me: I identify most with other Liberals, but on the whole I live a pretty conservative life. My personal values to be against drug use, abortion, "radical" lifestyles, and most of those things I see as being destructive to humans in general. But I also don't think people should be forced into things, into living a certain way, and I think that some people even need to have their hands-held when dealing with things like debt and divorce because, on the whole, there are plenty of man-children amogst us that just don't know how badly they are screwing themselves.

Will I give my children the right to choose the life they want to live? I know that I may resist changes in them as any father would, but I hope I can remember that my kids are Gods children as well, and He doesn't intend for me to make up their minds for them, or for anybody else I have in my life.

See, even a Liberal like me can believe in God, just not a God of hellfire and damnation.

[MichiganMat]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
... I am NOT fine with the school mandating that MY kids will sit through liberal indoctrination sessions just because little Bobby's dad is a drunken bigot. Once you start deciding what is right and wrong for someone to think or teach their kids, it is just a little tiny jump to fascism...

Liberal Indoctrination Sessions? LOL. Man, you really hate the thought that your kids will accept things that you don't, dont you? I don't think you give little Nathan enough credit for his ability, or right, to choose. Im sure he's a smart boy, let the kid make up his own mind about what is right and wrong for him. Hiding information from him will only make him more curious you know. Keep pounding on him with your set, or your Gods set, or morals and he may act out against you if only to spite you for your intolerance.

Thats what I did with my Dad. I dated Jewish girls (who are wicked fun BTW), had Black friends, listened to rap music, and now I work with a bunch of SF gays. It drives the old man crazy, and its one of the reasons I don't talk to him much anymore

[nostatic]

Rick, how can I not jump to hyperbole when you say: "See, here's the problem. The liberals in this country have been waging a war against the traditional family for decades. They have succeeded in many ways. So now, we have single parent families, no parent families, homosexual parent families, etc." It sounds pretty clear cut to me that you blame liberals for all of this.

I guess I don't see the "liberal indoctrination" in the schools. One could also argue that the previous generation of textbooks where all the pictures had happy white people in them were a "conservative indoctrination." I would prefer that school not teach certain things. But where do you draw the line? Is it ok to have textbooks that only show white people? Only black people? Do you ignore "alternative lifestyles" in social studies? Do you only present a "traditional family" in any examples? The bias is often subtle, but that is what a lot of the revisions have been trying to address. Have they screwed up? Sure. But I would argue that the WASP-centric textbooks were screwed up too.

The problem is that an education is about more than just math and science. You also need to learn about culture and society. You can't get that from home. At least not enough diversity. History and social studies are part of the curriculum. These will always have to either ignore or discuss tricky issues.

And as for sex ed, sorry, but I'm for it being taught in schools. We can discuss the details, but the reality is that most parents do not have adequate conversations with their kids. Even the "good" parents. And sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancy are huge issues. imho the schools have to step in because the *majority* of familes have dropped the ball on this one.

[IROC]

Originally posted by MichiganMat
Hiding information from him will only make him more curious you know. Keep pounding on him with your set, or your Gods set, or morals and he may act out against you if only to spite you for your intolerance.

Interesting that some of the wildest kids I grew up with were "PKs". Preacher's Kids.

Mike

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Why should some one get special rights because how they like to have sex??

You need to explain this one. Which special rights?

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Of course it does, the dems need it to keep people down, they are the ones telling other that they can't succeed without government help because the are black or a woman and anytime some one suggest judging by abilities, liberal scream that it isn't fair!! Why do liberal think blacks and woman aren't capable of succeeding with out them??

Care to provide an example of exactly what you mean?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by IROC
Interesting that some of the wildest kids I grew up with were "PKs". Preacher's Kids.

Mike

True, I always knew I would score when I took a Preacher's daughter out on a date!! They were the easiest!!

[MichiganMat]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
True, I always knew I would score when I took a Preacher's daughter out on a date!! They were the easiest!!

No **** Sherlock? Duh!

And Im sure the strong conservative family values she learned from her family have since molded her into a fine example of adulthood. Or maybe the culture of Liberalism deformed her values and shes a shoeless welfare mother of 6 now. One can only guess.

Some of you OT Conservatives are parodies of yourselves!

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by stevepaa
You need to explain this one. Which special rights?

Tax & medical coverage, I can't get extra tax breaks for having 2 20 year olds with large boobs (my choice to date more than one girl) why should someone else who has chosen a nontraditional get tax & med benefits?? Why should an independent business be forced to hire some one who they don't think is a good fit for their company?? Why can't you fire some one, who doesn't do the job, but plays the I'm gay, so just try and fire me, I'll sue game (a local PCA member used this one for years at the corp he was employed by)
No one cares if someones gay, like you liberals love to preach that we do, but we don't think gay people need to try, and yes, having these parades, dressed in drag & ass chaps and telling everyone one that they have to accept thier life style is just plain wrong, just like if I stated that you had to accept strippers having pride parades and getting med benefits for boob jobs from tax $$ (why can gays get sex changes in CA paid with tax $$$?) how is it different??

[azasadny]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
We have legislated morality in the past and will continue to legislate morality in the future. Examples abound, child porn laws, laws against polygamy, laws against prostitution, laws against murder, rape, incest, etc, etc, etc.

I disagree that the conservative ideal is to impose their values on the rest of America. I am a conservative and I don't want to impose my ideals on other people, I just want to stop the imposition of other people's ideals on me and my family. I don't think my kids should be taught their morality in school. It is my job to teach my kids what is right and wrong. They should not be forced to read textbooks about little Bobby and his two daddys and how happy and "normal" they are. I'm sorry, I believe that homosexuality is a sin and I will teach my children the same thing. I don't think it is my job to be the crusader and tell everyone else what they should teach their kids, just don't try to indoctrinate mine in the public school system. Don't teach my kid how to use a condom at the age of 8, thank you very much, I will take care of that when I think the time is right. And is it really all that bad to say "under God" in the pledge?

And conservatives don't have a narrower belief structure, we simply have beliefs. Real ones. Ones that define right and wrong. Liberals seem more and more to think that everything is ok as long as it makes you happy. Then they wonder why our society is crumbling.

+1 here!

[RPKESQ]

So it's OK for the Irish, Italians, Firemen, Police, Sports Teams, Politicians, and on and on to have parades, but not gays. Isn't that the same thing they said and tried to prevent about blacks awhile back?

No matter how you present this, your positions are pure bigotry. There is no peer-reviewed scientific or medical study that states being gay is a choice. That is the religious-nutcase position only. So, at best, what you have is proposed discrimination against something that they have not control of; like being born black.

Again show me an argument that doesn't parrot the same old cries of "the end of civilization" and "family crisis" crap. Have any of you proof that giving gay unions the same status and rights as heterosexual marriages undermines the family? Exactly, how does that work? Anyone up to an explanation? Please, no rants, just a step by step (proven of course) plot of how gay marriage will threaten heterosexual marriages.

And by the way, Gays don't get sex change operations. You are obviously confusing transgenders for gays. Maybe you need to learn just a bit more.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Tax & medical coverage, why should someone else who has chosen a nontraditional get tax & med benefits??

Which tax and medical coverage?

Why should an independent business be forced to hire some one who they don't think is a good fit for their company??

Who is forcing you to hire someone?

Why can't you fire some one, who doesn't do the job, but plays the I'm gay, so just try and fire me, I'll sue game (a local PCA member used this one for years at the corp he was employed by)

Sounds like an old wives' tale. Firing is harder now as you must substantiate why people are fired, but that protects everyone from capricious firings.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by azasadny
+1 here!

Real ones. Ones that define right and wrong.

It seems the "conservatism" expressed here is a desire to return to white Christian values as standard for everyone, when in fact the majority of Americans don't live that way. What you want is for everyone else to accept your values as the only choice for America and stop telling you that in fact there is a wide distribution of family values, personal values, moral codes, etc.

[Racerbvd]

The Irish, Italians, Firemen, Police, Sports Teams, Politicians have parades because, the Irish & Italians are nationalities, Firemen, Police, Politicians are public servants, one we owe thanks too, the one who put their lives on the line that is, Sports Teams, well, generally they only have parades when they win a championship that the community supports and gives back to the community.

Then why can strippers & Hooters girls have parades??
It is a lifestyle choice, like a drunk or drug addict, but you don't see them having parades (OK, drinking, St. Paddy's day) but why should their lifestyle choice be put above the others?? Why aren't there any Straight Pride Months?? a group tried to do it in Orlando a few years back, were willing to pay for flags & everything, but the city said no, yet the city not only allowed a gay pride month, but paid for it too!!

[MichiganMat]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
The Irish, Italians, Firemen, Police, Sports Teams, Politicians have parades because, the Irish & Italians are nationalities, Firemen, Police, Politicians are public servants, one we owe thanks too, the one who put their lives on the line that is, Sports Teams, well, generally they only have parades when they win a championship that the community supports and gives back to the community.

Then why can strippers & Hooters girls have parades??
It is a lifestyle choice, like a drunk or drug addict, but you don't see them having parades (OK, drinking, St. Paddy's day) but why should their lifestyle choice be put above the others?? Why aren't there any Straight Pride Months?? a group tried to do it in Orlando a few years back, were willing to pay for flags & everything, but the city said no, yet the city not only allowed a gay pride month, but paid for it too!!

So Byron... when in your life did you choose to be straight? If its a "lifestyle choice" as you say then that kinda means that somewhere in your life that, though you were equally attracted to women and men, you chose women for whatever reason (benefits, children, etc).

Or maybe you just assume that everyone is just like you, hosting wet t-shirt contests on the weekends, and that gays are just choosing to be different, maybe for all the wonderful benefits being gay has to offer?

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
No matter how you present this, your positions are pure bigotry. There is no peer-reviewed scientific or medical study that states being gay is a choice. That is the religious-nutcase position only. So, at best, what you have is proposed discrimination against something that they have not control of; like being born black.

Again trying to paint anyone who even mentions something else as evil I see. And how in the world is stating that I feel it is a choice "proposing discrimination"? You are a poster child of the method I described before.

You obviously feel that gay is genetic. Please enlighten me on the genetic cause then? I really would like to hear how you are sure of this. Is there a Gay gene?

"Like being born black". I love this one. Not only do you try to prove your case of "born that way" you instantly have reason to attack anyone who says otherwise by implying that they are now racist too.

My personal opinion is that "born gay" is just like you were "born English speaking". (assuming US birth of course) We were all born with the capacity for sex, that is where the genetics stops and the choice starts. A lot of the choice is determined by society but it is still a choice.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by MichiganMat
So Byron... when in your life did you choose to be straight? If its a "lifestyle choice" as you say then that kinda means that somewhere in your life that, though you were equally attracted to women and men, you chose women for whatever reason (benefits, children, etc).

About 12, 13 when I went through puberty. No one ever said that the attraction was equal or even needed to be to have made a choice. Weak baiting attempt. When did you choice not to be a child molester? See I can do it too.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by MichiganMat
So Byron... when in your life did you choose to be straight? If its a "lifestyle choice" as you say then that kinda means that somewhere in your life that, though you were equally attracted to women and men, you chose women for whatever reason (benefits, children, etc).

Or maybe you just assume that everyone is just like you, hosting wet t-shirt contests on the weekends, and that gays are just choosing to be different, maybe for all the wonderful benefits being gay has to offer?

How you live your life is your choice, if you choose to put your lifestyle in the public eye, like the wet T shirt contest, you make that choice, and I haven't seen any wet T-shirt parades either. This is about being gay or straight, but the choice that you make to put it in the public eye. The choice is how you act on those feelings, no matter if it be a priest molesting a little boy, a hot teacher doing a 7th grader in her class, a hillbilly doing a goat, what ever. As stated before, where do you draw the line?? The end of the Roman empire came after erasing that line.
How is being gay, if as you say you are born that waty any different than being born addicted to drugs, both are born that way? So why do you say one is "now" OK but the other isn't??

[techweenie]

Originally posted by tobster1911
My personal opinion is that "born gay" is just like you were "born English speaking". (assuming US birth of course) We were all born with the capacity for sex, that is where the genetics stops and the choice starts. A lot of the choice is determined by society but it is still a choice.

Opinions are like... well, you know. Do you have any scientific backing for that opinion? Because there is a very large volume of scientific evidence that says sexual orientation, like race, is in the genes.