America is Going to Fall

[RPKESQ]

I will attempt to increase the understanding of the situation before, during and after WWII. To more look closer at this problem let us sharply define our period of interest, let’s say from 1937 to 1950. For America pre-war will be 1937 to almost the very end of 1941, the war years were 1942 to August 1945, and the post war years 1946 to 1950.

America Pre-war, The vast majority of Americans did not want to be involved with world politics. We did not really care about the Japanese and their war of aggression in China. Our greatest hero, Charles Lindbergh, was the anti-semetic spokesman for the American First (Isolationist) Party. We were not interested in Germany, the Jews or England’s survival. We wanted to keep America out of the war at all costs. Europe’s interests did not coincide with our own interests. We were just barely recovering from the worst depression our County had ever seen.

America during the War Years, Contrarily to popular belief, there still was dissension within America. Although now the vast majority of Americans were pro-war, most of them were pro-war against the Japanese not the Germans. When asked why they enlisted after Pearl Harbor over 97% declared they did it to fight the Japanese and to avenge Pearl Harbor. Few had any concern for the war in Europe. After a unprecedented propaganda champagne, with a lot of political infighting mixed with some military thinking, America came up with the idea to first fight Germany and then Japan (in priority). Rationing was wildly hated and like income taxes, cheating was common place. The community spriit that America exhibited depended on the hatred fostered towards our enimies, not from some inherent good we had. To prevent any major disruption with our war effort, America suspended our Constitution. So for the duration, a US citizen had no constitutional rights. Industry prospered, with millions made in manufacturing. America suffered very little during the war compared to our allies and other countries. Our interest in Europe grew to dominate our political thinking for the first time in our history.

Post-War, America is the strongest superpower, both militarily and economically. After the war ended we rapidly reversed any and all wartime restrictions and thinking. We ended the war richer, the only global power and with intact high technology production capacity. We wasted no time in helping our allies (most notable exception: England) and our conquered foes in rebuilding and development. We ran the world according to our designs, with the only two sore spots being the USSR and Communist China. Our thoughts were turned inward again, building the “American Dream”. This fantasy concept did not exist before the end of the war. By 1950 it is clear that we will not be alone in the world superpower arena and we increasingly become more polarized in the internal and external political debates. This was the end of the any cooperation between the political parties in the US for the common good. From now on it was partisan politics on an increasing scale. Also the rise of religion in American politics grew at a rate unknown in the previous 150+ years. References to god were incorporated in money, the pledge of allegiance, in court houses, city halls, etc. The new battle against the rise of communism was defined by religion and freedom (two of histories most strange bedfellows).

America has no more of a history of being able and willing to stand united than many other countries and less than some. The true abilities of any country lie in its leaders or lack thereof. The successes of the past in times of crisis are really due to the leaders that emerged. The population is swayed only by emotion and can be lead in good or bad directions like an obedient cow. Leadership is what counts the most. Until America produces a leader in the vein of Roosevelt or Churchill, we will flounder. As we are doing on the world stage over and over again. Short term unifications (like after 9/11) are thrown away and wasted by poor leadership. We sure need to do better!

No, its not all doom and gloom, but it is pretty sad in many respects today.

[Halm]

Lot of good points here today and I agree that Tab’s Mad Max scenario is a way over the top.

Be that as it may, we are a polarized nation. Polarized on Iraq, War on Terror, and immigration to name a few of today’s front burner topics. Healthy debate is great and is what this county is built on.

The issue I was commenting about was that both parties participate more in agitation than in resolution. Anything and everything is fair game to gain an advantage over the other party. IMO, it is all about power, not what is right for the county. Even 9-11 wasn’t able to unite the county for more than a few months. I don’t know what it will take to reverse the current “Borked” approach to government.

[tabs]

Further consider that the US Government as a result of lack of cash flow defaults on its Bonds, oil as a consequence could go to say $!50 to $200 a barrel. Or consider that Iran does get a bomb and uses it or the Israelies decide to preempt an Iranian bomb by bombing the Iranian Nuclear sites.

[azasadny]

Originally posted by tabs
I have come to the realization that not only has America lost the War on Terrorism but America will fall. It is not so much that the enemy is going to lay the US low, but we ourselves are our own worst enemy. Political infighting between the 2 Parties has polarized the country to an extent that has not been seen since the Great Patriotic War of Rebelion in 1861. This polarization has rendered the US impotent in the face of our enemies.

The instrument of the fall of the US will be an eventually successfull Terrorist Attack on a fairily major scale. One has to realize that any attack would only be able to physically cause minor damage to the US, yet it would be the psychological defeatist attitude that is so prevelent that would panic the people in the US, which in turn would cause a crisis of Liquidity. Removing the lubrication that keeps the wheels of commerece greased would cause the financial system to grind to a halt, and thus cause the US to fall.

So Boyz it is time to start planning on what your gona do when your gona have to fend for yoursleves. I know I am going to stock up on arms and ammuntion, so that when that dreaded day dawns I'll be able to stick a gun in my neighbors face and take his Food and Gasoline.

Weren't all of the "Y2K" people saying this same thing back in 1999? Gary North and his brethren were also predicting TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) and it didn't happen....

[jyl]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I too believe that most Americans have become soft. However, I also believe that our country's freedoms and rights are still held and revered by most, and that we would rise out of our Starbucks easy-chairs and defend those rights in the face of adversity.

One huge advantage to the US that will never go away is the fact that we are on our own continent - physically separated by two large oceans. This physically insulates us from a large-scale attack like almost no other nation. I know we didn't design it this way, but it works out pretty well in the long run.

-Wayne

Close but not quite. That's why we need to annex Canada. Long and poorly defended border. They have some nice real estate too. Haven't the Canadians always wanted to be ruled from Texas?

[W Scott Shores]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
One huge advantage to the US that will never go away is the fact that we are on our own continent - physically separated by two large oceans. This physically insulates us from a large-scale attack like almost no other nation. I know we didn't design it this way, but it works out pretty well in the long run.

-Wayne

Unfortunately, this advantage will hold for only another decade or two -- until nuclear and long-range missle technology proliferate. The "international community" doesn't seem very interested in slowing that down.

[Rodeo]

The attack will be made on our institutions of freedom, justice and equality. If anything brings us down, it will be that kind of attack, from within.

That in a nutshell is why I oppose the Bush administration.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by jyl
Close but not quite. That's why we need to annex Canada. Long and poorly defended border. They have some nice real estate too. Haven't the Canadians always wanted to be ruled from Texas?

Yes - they are rich in resources for sure. Speaking for Texas, we would gladly like to take over Canada and own all its water and mineral rights. I will gladly assume the post of Canadian Chancellor for Texas!

[tabs]

RPK your spouting Liberal revisionist History...There was no propaganda campaign to go after Germany first. Germany declared war on the US on December 11th 1941. After that the Japs and Krauts were looked on as fair game. Roosvelt and Churchill saw Germany as the greater threat because of its INDUSTRIAL CAPABILTY.

It was the incomprensible loss of China to the Communists that turned America to looking into its closets for Commies."How could we lose China, it musta bin a Commie conspiracy in our own government." Politics until the 1970s was hard fought but at the end of the day represenatives from both parties would sit down and have a drink together. Both Parties who set aside differences when it came to the National Defence or the Good of the Country. Take Nixon not demanding a recount in Ill, over the Democratic voter fraud in Chicago in the 1960 Presidnetial election. He did it for the GOOD of the Country. His Words not mine...

It was George Washington who set America on an Isolationist bent. He said, "Avoid foreign entanglements." meaning don't get involved in European squables as it is a drain on resources time and attention. Even after WW2 the US was returning to its Isolationist ways, but cutting the military budgets to the bone. Slowly it dawned on the US around 1948 that the USSR was up to NO GOOD, China was lost in 49, the Soviets exploded their Bomb, which was helped by Americans spying for the Soviets. S Korea was invaded by the North in 50 and Truman had to scrape the bottom of the military barrel to come up with troops to repel the North Koreans.

[M.D. Holloway]

Texas may just succeed - we always wanted to be by our selves anyway. Long Live the Peoples Republic of Tejas!

[tabs]

America rise out of its Starbucks stupor....American don't even have the political will to stop illegal immigration is erroding its standard of living and turning this once great nation into a Third World country.

[widgeon13]

Media coverage, TV, computers, Crackberry, internet all have a huge impact on us and how we think and react. That did not exist 65 years ago. You did not get the news at night of all the things that happened that day around the world. Sometimes it tooks weeks or longer to get news of events around the world. We get deluged with this shlt every minute and it has a psychological effect on every one of us. Some, it effects more than others.

I don't beleive you can compare WWII w/ war on terror. So many factors are different.

What I do believe you can compare is the resolve of the nation and to me that is a strong today as it was 65 years ago.

Someone mentioned that the military is primarily from lower class society, I disagree with that. I have spoken to young people from all the military branches and find them to be very intelligent, articulate and committed to their nation. During Vietnam, the draft did have to deal with societal issues as well as people who did not want to be there (in the military). There are stupid people in all professions, I knew a fair number in business. Every walk of life has it's *********s but we just have to make certain they never outnumber us and we will survive to enjoy another day.

[tabs]

America at the very least is going to turn into an Island nation of Gated Communties surrounded by slums and shanty towns of the impoverished.

[tabs]

Originally posted by widgeon13
Media coverage, TV, computers, Crackberry, internet all have a huge impact on us and how we think and react. That did not exist 65 years ago. You did not get the news at night of all the things that happened that day around the world. Sometimes it tooks weeks or longer to get news of events around the world. We get deluged with this shlt every minute and it has a psychological effect on every one of us. Some, it effects more than others.

Exactly right with the overload of information that is available it can very well seem like the Apocalypse is at hand.

[azasadny]

Originally posted by tabs
America at the very least is going to turn into an Island nation of Gated Communties surrounded by slums and shanty towns of the impoverished.

That has already happened or have you not visited the Detroit area recently?

[tabs]

I have allready said the First Chapter of the Fall of America has allready been written, and Detroit is a prototype.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by azasadny
That has already happened or have you not visited the Detroit area recently?

Or L.A.?

[Moneyguy1]

Too many people in the world, too much available technology. Perhaps the herd needs some drastic thinning.

[1967 R50/2]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts


One huge advantage to the US that will never go away is the fact that we are on our own continent - physically separated by two large oceans. This physically insulates us from a large-scale attack like almost no other nation. I know we didn't design it this way, but it works out pretty well in the long run.

-Wayne

This has not been true for 50 years. Ever since the USSR developed ballistic missles and nukes, those oceans might well not have existed.

Furthermore, oceans are a very small barrier to terrorist attacks from without ...like 9/11 or from within...like Oklahoma City.

Personally, I beleive there is no way an outside attack (as postulated here) can divide the US, quite the contrary. Whenever the US is attacked from without, people pull together.

Likewise any attack from within, like OC, is not likely to spur mass rebellion but rather revulsion.

Civil unrest, due to class, race, etc is nothing new in the US and people will either oppose it or endorse it with varying levels of interest and commitment. The only thing constant is change. The society of today would be scarcely recognizable to the Americans of 1906. That is part of the strength of the country: the ability to embrace change, be it technological or cultural. The only constant are the values laid out in the constitutution and bill or rights, and even those can be amended.

In short, prophesies of doom are usually greatly exaggerated. It surely is the case now, as it ever was.

That is all.

[tabs]

There will be no mass rebellion or civil unrest...the financial system will grind to a halt and the government without money as a binding agent will lose cohesion and thus effectiviness. The result will be like what happened when the Police stopped policing in LA in 92 or the aftermath of Katrina in NO when civil authority vanished.