America is Going to Fall

[Flatbutt1]

and now backto our usual program of personal attacks YAWN

[nostatic]

maybe I better order 2K rounds instead of just 1K rounds...

[Rodeo]

Yea, tabs. Going after me is boring.

Let's be friends. Wanna take a walk with me?

[tabs]

Nostatus there are Amercians who will believe anything...Promise them that their Rights will be protected and they can be easily manipulated by any political charlatan that is out there....Bill Clinton is the prototype Pied Piper.

[tabs]

Sorry Rodeo I saw the cheap shot and I took it....

[Rodeo]

Yes, I knew about Padilla (glad he's off the street, personally, but that's beside the point). You said "citizens" (plural). Who are some others?

Numerous "material witnesses" have been held in federal lock up for varying lengths of time. Not one of them ever charged with a crime as far as I know.

But let's stay on subject ... I find it interesting that you waive off Padilla. Do you support holding Padilla for all those years without charges?

Do you think locking people up without charging them and without access to lawyers is an appropriate way to "defend freedom?"

[Rodeo]

Pretty neat trick, huh?

Accused criminal = constitutional rights as a free American citizen
Enemy combatant = throw away the key

And the only person that gets to classify you as one or the other is our supreme leader, in his benevolent discretion.

I never thought I'd miss the anti-communist, right wing nut jobs.

But I do.

[tabs]

Rodeo and Scott your arguments are devoling into exactly what I have been saying....that the acrimony between political points are so divisive that it is causing America to beocme ineffectual in its abilty to deal with crisis situations.

Instead of coming together and agreeing that the result of Terrorist act is so dire that extraordinary measures need to be taken to nullify that threat, we argue about it. One part of the problem is that one side of the Political spectrum believes that nothing so grave as to effect their way of life could ever happen. It is inconceivable to them, they think that they are still on the school ground and Mommy and Daddy will be there to shield them from the harsh reality that the world is truly a cruel place where it comes down to survival of the fittest.

[RPKESQ]

Tabs wrote:
RPK your spouting Liberal revisionist History...There was no propaganda campaign to go after Germany first. Germany declared war on the US on December 11th 1941. After that the Japs and Krauts were looked on as fair game. Roosvelt and Churchill saw Germany as the greater threat because of its INDUSTRIAL CAPABILTY.

It was the incomprensible loss of China to the Communists that turned America to looking into its closets for Commies."How could we lose China, it musta bin a Commie conspiracy in our own government." Politics until the 1970s was hard fought but at the end of the day represenatives from both parties would sit down and have a drink together. Both Parties who set aside differences when it came to the National Defence or the Good of the Country. Take Nixon not demanding a recount in Ill, over the Democratic voter fraud in Chicago in the 1960 Presidnetial election. He did it for the GOOD of the Country. His Words not mine...

It was George Washington who set America on an Isolationist bent. He said, "Avoid foreign entanglements." meaning don't get involved in European squables as it is a drain on resources time and attention. Even after WW2 the US was returning to its Isolationist ways, but cutting the military budgets to the bone. Slowly it dawned on the US around 1948 that the USSR was up to NO GOOD, China was lost in 49, the Soviets exploded their Bomb, which was helped by Americans spying for the Soviets. S Korea was invaded by the North in 50 and Truman had to scrape the bottom of the military barrel to come up with troops to repel the North Koreans.


Hey Tabs, with all due respect, there is no reversionary history in my post (liberal or otherwise). I agree that our government and military judged Germany the greater threat. But not the US public. The US Government launched a major propaganda campaign to convince the American public that Germany was the greater threat. Look it up, all the presidential, congressional notes and military analysis are in the archives to support this. You can actually read the US government’s plans to float this plan to the US public. The public wanted to go after the Japanese, not the Germans (I did not say this was the wrong thing to do, I just said it WAS done, as an example of proper leadership swaying the masses to the greater good).

True, the loss of China after WWII helped to creat the witch hunts of the 50’s. Not the best chapter in American history. And as to political cohesiveness before the blue/red states era; from the end of WWII to the early 1990’s, most political issues were who could grab the “high ground” first. They did try to present a cohesive public front, but it was only a charade most of the time. The easy win was to support defense and/or at home prosperity. Not done for the best interest of the country in most cases, just for the votes. How many times did we lie to the public about the USSR’s or China’s military prowess? Remember the “missile gap”? That was completely made up, our own intelligence services had that knowledge, but it was never released to the public (till after the fall of the USSR).

I agree our isolationist bent stems from GW and was fairly easy to have until the 1960's.

[tabs]

RPK the word "propaganda" has a pejoritve conotation...if U had said the US launched a campaign to inform Americans as to the reasons why Germany was chosen to be the enemy to defeat first ..then I would whole heartedly agree with U.

During the Cold War both Political Parties were on the same page most of the time when it came to National Defense. U didn't hear the Repblicans complaining about how much of a loser Vietnam was, and that was strictily a Democrats war...JFK & LBJ were the big proponents of escaluation. JFK was always the first to increase the Military Budget for fear of being acused of being soft on Communism. The CIA was either stupid or disingenous...the intelliegence data coming out of the USSR from the 70s on was that it was a regime on a course for implosion that its economy was in decline. they either didn't beoeve their own intel or wanted to keep their budget high by keeping the level of threat high.

The Missle Gap was a Kennedy campaign invention...by claiming a missle gap he hoped to get votes by showing the Repblicans to be penny pinching when it came to National Defense and as a result were losing the Cold War. Yet the Eisenhower Admin knew the truth that the USSR was so far behind as to be hardly a threat, yet Eisenhower couldn't come out and say that because he got the intel from the U2 flights that were secret.

BTW: I don't know where U went to school RPK but I learned about that way back in college in the 70s.

[Moses]

Mike Wallace/Ahmadinejad Interview;

[dd74]

America is going to fall? No surprise there. It's been falling since at least the end of WWII.

Economic/social classes are more divided than ever - Dr. King's efforts, voters' rights, and amendments have merely shown to themselves as stopgaps and nothing more.

Religion is making our country nothing dissimilar from the Islamic fundamentalist-run countries we tout as enemies.

The U.S. government represents itself for personal gain, and leaves the people to fend for themselves. Case in point: Katrina and New Orleans.

It's fallen already. What efforts there were to dignify the common man with fairness in comparison to the wealthy-elite has now evaporated as a well-intended idea.

Unfortunately, having already fallen, it seems civil war may instead be the next logical step in America's future.

[Moneyguy1]

What we need is a temporary dictatorship........

Well, at least that part of the problem is out of the way.....

No one on this bb saw how close the systemwas to collapse after 9/11.....

I disagree. When the advice from Washington was "business as usual...go out and buy", the red flags went up, at least in my little corner of the world. The downward economic spiral began at that point.

"The Thwump bird is a very rare bird that flies in decreasing concentric circles until it flies up its own a$$ with a resounding 'thwump'".

[tabs]

Not quiet right DEEEDEEE...The US was ON TOP OF THE WORLD at the end of WW2. The US enjoyed a Golden Age of Prosperity, where the Middle Class bloomed. We got so rich that we didin't know what to do with it all so we started spending it on Social Welfare Programs called the Great Society and the Vietnam War the duality of it was called "Guns and Butter" we were so rich we could do it all.

Slowly but surely other nations reconstituted themsleves after WW2 and started to creep up on the US giving America competition. We largely ignored them and the Japs in paticular trounced America with their cars and electronics. Since the 70s America has been slowly selling the Farm off a bit of time to maintain the illusion of being the rich relatives of the world.

Meanwhile US based corps have moved production facilities overseas becoming multinational corps. whose only loyalty is to the Sharholder and providing a profit every quarter so that their stock price increases. They don't really care if its an Indian or American who gets the paycheck and orwhat their standard of living is, so long as there is a profit made.

Yes the illusion of a Middle Class Life Style is under pressure and it now takes three to maintain it...Husband, Wife and Credit Card. The Middle Class is shrinking and the illusion of oportunity for all to achieve the good life is an oxymoron. It will be increasingily the best and brightest that make their way to the top while the rest languish behind left to watch TV and root for who the next Superbowl Champ will be.

[tabs]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1


No one on this bb saw how close the systemwas to collapse after 9/11.....

I disagree. When the advice from Washington was "business as usual...go out and buy", the red flags went up, at least in my little corner of the world. The downward economic spiral began at that point.
.

Money your right on, except your conclusion is off....

"go out and buy" means SPEND MONEY AND KEEP THE CASH FLOWING....and the Fed helped by lowering interest rates to 1% and GM to 0% on their cars. After 3 years the Fed reversed course because they felt that the US had gotten over the trauma of 911 and the economy was back on course....and with 4.6% unemployment that is hard to argue with. Now the Fed is trying to moderate inflation due to too much Liquidity in the system.

Actualily at this point in time the Government is taking in more money than they are spending.

[Moneyguy1]

tabs

You mention the credit card. It is indeed a villain in this ongoing play. Those of you who can remember when there were two items bought "on time", a house and a car. Everything else was cash, and people had to think long and hard before making non essential purchases. Sure, there might be a big purchse like an engagement ring, but those were usually on what was called "layaway", and payment was complete before the item was actually owned. To those of you too young to have experienced cash transactions, this probably sounds like fantasy. Trust me. It wasn't fantasy. It was a way of life.

Without the easy credit of today, believe it or not, many families survived and even flourished with a single income. Amazing.

Just read some of the posts here and see how many posters are technically overextended, hoping against hope that things will continue to go up and increase their "paper profits". How many here can pay off outstanding obligations (except the mortgage on the principal residence) without selling off a non-money asset or two?

Tabs, you are indeed correct in your last paragraph. The Romans called it "Bread and Circuses". Keep the people dumb, fat and happy, distracting them of what is going on around them.

[dd74]

Originally posted by tabs
Not quiet right DEEEDEEE...The US was ON TOP OF THE WORLD at the end of WW2. The US enjoyed a Golden Age of Prosperity, where the Middle Class bloomed. We got so rich that we didin't know what to do with it all so we started spending it on Social Welfare Programs called the Great Society and the Vietnam War the duality of it was called "Guns and Butter" we were so rich we could do it all.

Slowly but surely other nations reconstituted themsleves after WW2 and started to creep up on the US giving America competition. We largely ignored them and the Japs in paticular trounced America with their cars and electronics. Since the 70s America has been slowly selling the Farm off a bit of time to maintain the illusion of being the rich relatives of the world.

Meanwhile US based corps have moved production facilities overseas becoming multinational corps. whose only loyalty is to the Sharholder and providing a profit every quarter so that their stock price increases. They don't really care if its an Indian or American who gets the paycheck and orwhat their standard of living is, so long as there is a profit made.

Yes the illusion of a Middle Class Life Style is under pressure and it now takes three to maintain it...Husband, Wife and Credit Card. The Middle Class is shrinking and the illusion of oportunity for all to achieve the good life is an oxymoron. It will be increasingily the best and brightest that make their way to the top while the rest languish behind left to watch TV and root for who the next Superbowl Champ will be.

First of all: there is no middle class. You either have those who will hang onto position in the upper strata of the economy or those who will fall into debt, thus running strong risk of becoming impoverished. The middle man is such for only a month or two before he ascends or descends.

Secondly - Post WW2 America saw a very brief time of prosperity. At the close of the war, many industries slowed down. Returning soldiers reclaimed jobs that women and/or minorities might have had. Soon, class separation was beginning to be seen, particularly by Korea. So this period of prosperity you speak of did not in any way represent all of America, not even white America, who currently are the last vestige of American society now effected by the current stratification of the economy.

Third - The Fed, overinflated prices of all types of personal properties from homes to cars and vacations, to corporate irresponsibility toward empowering its own workers in lieu of making a bigger buck by moving operations overseas, is the cartel of enemies against America - not just the credit card.

[Aurel]

When all hell breaks loose, I can fly back to France, get a $40k a year job with 7 weeks vacations a year, guaranteed retirement and health benefits.
I may even still be able to afford an old 911, if I share the tools with my brother. Really, I am just here for the goodies. The day I have no more fun or feel no more secure, it will be seeya...I can downsize myself and still feel big inside and live a happy life. It is all relative anyways.

Aurel

[Howard Agency]

Just a general barb, so please don't anyone take this personally...

I didn't realize things were so bad. I must live on a different planet.

I have a good wife, nice home, kids that went to good schools and have done well. I have no debt, live in a beautiful town on a good street with good neighbors, and while I'm not proud of all of my country's policies, I would rather live here than anywhere else. There are Porsches in the garage, Mulholland and Pacific Coast Highway are just a few miles away.

I could have a bigger house, Ferrari's, and more money. I'd like to be thinner, have more hair, and be a better guitar player and golfer. The government isn't stopping me; is it stopping you?

This country has provided me with an environment where I can succeed or fail by my own efforts. I didn't expect them to fix the damage to my home after the earthquake nor pay for my kids' schooling. Richard Losee, the guy who recently totalled his Enzo (and almost himself) wrote in R&T,

"... even if I hit the 200-mph barrier it seemed to me it it wouldn't be quite as satisfying as reaching that speed on an ordinary taxpayer's road... Remember this is America; you can do anything you want, you just have to live with the consequences."

Well said, Richard.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
I didn't realize things were so bad. I must live on a different planet.

The point isn't whether or not you think things are bad. It's whether or not others think things are bad, and there are plenty more who believe they are than those who do not believe things are bad.