CCW is better than a Court Order

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

This woman had a restraining order against some psycho stalker

And unfortunately, they are not actually worth anything. Why do people think that a criminal or a psycho will follow a court order.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/02/washington.shooting.ap/index.html

Police: Slain woman had restraining order

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- A man and a woman were shot to death in the University of Washington's architecture building Monday in an apparent murder-suicide, university police said.

Officers responding to reports of gunfire found the two and a handgun in an office on the fourth floor of Gould Hall, Assistant University Police Chief Ray Wittmeir said.

The female victim, a 25-year-old university employee, had a restraining order against the man, who "almost certainly" shot her and took his own life, Wittmeir said.

About six shots were fired, and the only people involved were the woman and the man, who was in his 40s, Wittmeir said.

Lance Nguyen, a researcher at the Runstad Center for Real Estate Research, which has offices on the building's fourth floor, said he was a co-worker of the woman and that she had said she was worried about her former boyfriend. The woman, a research specialist, changed her telephone number and e-mailed a photo of the man to friends, asking them to watch out for him, Nguyen said.

"She said it's a psycho from her past," Nguyen said.

Student Meghan Pinch, 27, was in a first-floor classroom when she heard several loud bangs. She said she did not think they were gunshots at first but then police told everyone to evacuate.

"No one wanted to really think it was real," Pinch said as she waited outside to learn if the victims were people she knew.

"We all are pretty close in this building," she said.

Gould Hall, built in 1972, houses three architecture department offices, a dean's office, a library, shop, lab, computer facilities and classrooms, according to the university's Web site.

The building, in an urban neighborhood on the edge of the campus, was closed for the day with classes rescheduled elsewhere on campus.

Joeaksa · 04-02-2007, 05:00 PM

Sad and more proof that there cannot be a cop everywhere to protect everyone. CCW is a good thing, just wish that every state understood this.

on-ramp · 05:09 PM

that's life.. a restraining order is meaningless against a psychopath... unfortunately a CCW maybe not have helped in this case. Might have given the woman a chance to defend herself. but if someone really wants to get you, it's not that difficult.

Jeff Higgins · 04-02-2007, 05:14 PM

Even with a CCW the UW campus is off limits to carry. There is a big gap in coverage, so to speak, even with a CCW. Anyone who desires to do what this man did, or anyone seeking unarmed victims for whatever reason, will have nothing to fear even from a CCW holder anywhere carry is still "off limits". This is, of course, unnacceptable and un-Constitutional. We have every right to be armed anywhere, any time we so choose.

Not that this particualr woman would have chosen that option anyway. Far too many people like her have deluded themselves into thinking the law can protect them. I bet she was very surprised, an quite indignant, that this guy had the gall to break the law. Oh my God, what has the world come to? Dissobeying a court order... How dare he...

on-ramp · 04-02-2007, 05:17 PM

I personally think anyone who CCW is a little paranoid. The chances of being attacked like this are so very small, it's silly to carry heat on you everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Call me crazy then. But I take my life and the life of my family seriously. And you don't CCW because you think something is going to happen. If you have ANY idea that something could be bad, you don't go.

If you think you need a gun, bring a rifle. And bring friends with rifles.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

The only way carrying takes away from your freedom is that you have to take a LOT more $hit from someone when you're armed, whereas you could easily thump their skull and get away with it if unarmed.

Since I've witnessed a fatal shooting and had a knife pulled on me, both in the last 15 yrs. and not in dangerous neighborhoods, I don't delude myself into thinking it could never happen to me.

Jeff Higgins · 04-02-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by red-beard
Call me crazy then. But I take my life and the life of my family seriously. And you don't CCW because you think something is going to happen. If you have ANY idea that something could be bad, you don't go.

If you think you need a gun, bring a rifle. And bring friends with rifles.

Exactly. If you are going to a scheduled gun fight, bring a rifle.

I personally think anyone who has auto insurance is a little paranoid. The chances of being in an accident like this are so very small, it's silly to carry insurance everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom. Sounds pretty stupid paraphrased in this manner, doesn't it?

Joeaksa · 04-02-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Exactly. If you are going to a scheduled gun fight, bring a rifle.

I personally think anyone who has auto insurance is a little paranoid. The chances of being in an accident like this are so very small, it's silly to carry insurance everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom. Sounds pretty stupid paraphrased in this manner, doesn't it?

Was thinking the same thing but trying to reason with some people just does not work.

Its funny but out of all the CCW permit holders around the nation, they commit no crimes and have been involved in very few incidents of any type. Pretty good for so called "paranoid group of gun owners" huh?

on-ramp · 04-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Exactly. If you are going to a scheduled gun fight, bring a rifle.

I personally think anyone who has auto insurance is a little paranoid. The chances of being in an accident like this are so very small, it's silly to carry insurance everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom. Sounds pretty stupid paraphrased in this manner, doesn't it?

there is a good reason why the law states you have to carry auto insurance to drive a car.
there is no law that states you have to carry a gun. making this comparison is just plain ridiculous, so don't confuse the 2.

MRM · 04-02-2007, 06:18 PM

Up here a drunk who was involved in a hit and run broke into a family's house trying to steal their car to get away. Husband confronts him with a shotgun. There's a struggle and the husband is shot. Bad guy picks up husband's shotgun and proceeds to almost kill the wife and kill the son with shotgun blows to the head and body. Bad guy was otherwise unarmed. No prior violent crime history; history of petty crimes, alcohol and drug related.

The moral of this story is either that if the family hadn't had a gun they would still be alive today. Or, if the father wielded the gun more proficiently the family would be alive and the bad guy would be dead. I guess it depends on your perspective.

My take on it is you call 911 BEFORE you open the door when you hear something in the garage. If you have a stalker you carry a cell phone and call 911 immediately whenever you see the stalker and certainly BEFORE you engage him in conversation.

legion · 04-02-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRM
If you have a stalker you carry a cell phone and call 911 immediately whenever you see the stalker and certainly BEFORE you engage him in conversation.

And how many "false alarms" will the police respond to before they and the 911 dispatchers stop taking you seriously?

In your above example, what's to say the deranged drunk would not have beaten the man to death if he was confronted unarmed?

targa911S · 04-02-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by on-ramp
I personally think anyone who CCW is a little paranoid. The chances of being attacked like this are so very small, it's silly to carry heat on you everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom.

So you would rather be buried by 6 than tried by 12?

I always tell my wife when we go out that I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Joeaksa · 04-02-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by targa911S
So you would rather be buried by 6 than tried by 12?

I always tell my wife when we go out that I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Yes but you are a man in command of your future and not someone with no spine waiting around until the police rescues them.

Totally agree.

targa911S · 04-02-2007, 06:45 PM

If you wait for the police you are waiting for the crime scene investigators.

Thanks Joe.

MRM · 04-02-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by legion
And how many "false alarms" will the police respond to before they and the 911 dispatchers stop taking you seriously?

In your above example, what's to say the deranged drunk would not have beaten the man to death if he was confronted unarmed?

In Minnesota the answer is "an infinite number" if the caller identifies herself as someone with a restraining order. By the way, it's not considered a false alarm if the guy runs before the cops arrive. The cops will consider that a victory.

In the example I gave the locked garage door between him and the bad guy probably says the bad guy wouldn't have beaten the family to death before the cops arrived.

I prosecuted for a few years and handled a few thousand domestic abse cases. I never figured out why people didn't call the cops before they opened the door to confron their stalker/drunk ex-boy friend/burglar.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

We aren't talking about a person protecting themselves in a theft situation, we are discussing a person who has a known stalker and she opts for a "restraining order". A restraining order only works if the person who is restrained is rational. How many times is this the case?

Jeff Higgins · 04-02-2007, 07:34 PM

A gun is somewhat unique amongst the vast array of tools at our disposal. When one is truly needed, anything else is a very poor substitute. Certainly a piece of paper filed away in some far off court has nowhere near the deterent affect when confronted with a determined, deranged assailant.

Jim Bremner · 04-02-2007, 08:04 PM

<------- saved family and self with a hand gun, from intruders 100 miles from a city.

ccw's should be issued to sane and sober people in good standing with the law.

rrpjr · 04-02-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by on-ramp
I personally think anyone who CCW is a little paranoid. The chances of being attacked like this are so very small, it's silly to carry heat on you everywhere you go "just in case". that takes away from your freedom.

The chances weren't small for her. They were 100%.