Oh Darn! The Bill is Dead

[sammyg2]

Tech, please provide links to the studies you speak of that say illegal immigrants don't cost much and I will provide you with some that are from the US government that say illegal immigrants cost a bunch.

If you like I will also provide links to hospitals that have closed down or are near closing due in large part to illegal immigrants.

[Jim Richards]

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98030.pdf

[the]

Originally posted by techweenie
So, what we have is effectively an amnesty in place, rather than a bill that would have imposed fines and hoops for 'illegals' to jump through.

Why do you put the word "illegals" in quotes?

[GO DAWG GO]

Sammy is correct. Tech, what state do you live in? It would be easy to discount the severity of effect if you were not immersed in it like us living is So-Cal. It literally is an invasion here. More and more radical politicians are being voted in. Its like a cancer metastasizing and almost too late.

[nostatic]

i think the hospital closings are more about uninsured patients and health care costs rather than "illegal" status of the people coming through the doors.

Tech lives in Los Angeles...

[The Gaijin]

Originally posted by techweenie
Lots of people would like to imagine that being here illegally is a felony. It's an 'administrative violation' like speeding.

Yes, enforcement is good, but what the noisiest anti-immigrant people really need to do first is make it a significant crime to be here without documentation. Then, and only then, will enforcement be meaningful.

'Illegals' cannot get social security payments. Further, many are using other peoples' social security numbers when they work, so the social security system is getting net money in.

As for the cost of illegals, there's not much actual cost there, according to studies that are not politically based. For instance, they are 1/20th as likely to use emergency rooms as US citizens are.

The anti-immigrant hysteria is just a big distraction from far more significant problems.

When you have been caught and turned loose - and don't show up for your hearing - what is that? That catagory alone has got to be in the hundred's of thousands. You would get in more trouble for not showing up for jury duty.

The net money going into social security is not much. Most illegals work off the books and dont pay a dime in taxes or FICA. If they are given blanket amnesty they will be getting full SS benifits in the future. That is the worry.

To say there is not much cost with 12 million illegals is not being realistic. With amnesty comes a green card - with a green card comes citizenship - with citizenship comes the ability to sponsor your parents, children and siblings. What about future costs? Social security and medicare?

The President's own study regarding illegal labor gives a net benifit $150 per year per US citizen. That is now with a young and hard working illegal population. But this undereducated group in low productivity jobs is not adding enough to the economy now to pay for their own future bills..

One of the strongest arguments made is that we need to prop up the boomers as they retire. Who is going to prop up those who prop up the boomers? We have got to get of this addiction to cheap low skilled labor, corporate special interests and a two class society.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Thank friggin' Christ.

Now maybe our doofuses in Washing-toon can put their collective gray matter together and figure out a bill that makes sense - without these "suck up" provisions for amnesty or a "guest worker" program that we don't need.

I'll even propose the text of said bill:

"The borders of the United States, a sovereign nation, are to be protected and defended in whatever manner necessary to prevent the unauthorized intrusion of individuals from foreign nations and the unauthorized importation of goods originating in foreign nations.

Any person entering or attempting to enter the United States other than in the manner prescribed by law shall be guilty of a felonious criminal act, punishable by not less than five and up to ten years in Federal Prison, and by a fine of not less than five hundred thousand ($500,000) dollars.

Any person bringing in goods or attempting to bring goods into the United States by any means other than prescribed by law shall be guilty of a felonious criminal act, punishable by not less than five and up to ten years in Federal Prison, and by a fine of not less than five hundred thousand ($500,000) dollars for each item involved.

Any individual, entity, corporation or business employing or seeking to employ individuals that have entered the United States illegally shall be guilty of a felonious criminal act, punishable by not less than five and up to ten years in Federal Prison, and by a fine of not less than five hundred thousand ($500,000) dollars for each individual involved."

That'd be a good start.

[jluetjen]

It's not just about "costs". These people also produce. If you think that labor rates will go up as a result of the illegal immigrants being shut-out -- you're right -- to a degree. They will only go up for those jobs that the illegal immigrants did that can't be moved. Generally these are low pay scale, menial jobs that college educated (or even high-school educated) Americans don't want. But since consumers (people like you and me) rarely will put up with a price increase for long, any jobs which are currently done by illegal immigrants which can be off shored to countries with cheaper labor -- will be. So by "solving" the illegal immigrant (aka: cheap labor in the US), you'll just be adding fuel to the fire in regards to off-shore job losses.

My ancesters were immigrants to this country who came here to do the cheap labor jobs in the textile mills here in the North East over 100 years ago. If we had our current immigration laws at that time, I expect that many of us wouldn't be here right now. I honestly believe that the U.S. would have been the worse off for it to.

[mattdavis11]

Throw in a couple of "where as" and that sounds like a resolution. (which do nothing)

Might want to grab a drafting manual before you hit the steps in DC.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I've said this a hundred times - the "illegal laborers do the work Americans don't want to do" position is bull.

The complete statement is "illegal laborers do the work Americans don't want to do AT A PARTICULAR PRICE".

In other words, by undercutting the intersection of supply & demand curves on a classic price versus quantity graph, they do a disservice to our market economy. If they're so industrious, then solving the problems in their own countries of origin ought to be a piece of cake, right?

[nostatic]

somebody's making a lot of money. And it likely isn't you and me, and it certainly isn't the illegal immigrants.

You think businesses that rely on illegals want any kind of "reform"? Follow the money...

And there is only so much that you can outsource.

[sammyg2]

Center for immigration studies, The high cost of cheap labor

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html



The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

Executive Summary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

[Rondinone]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I've said this a hundred times - the "illegal laborers do the work Americans don't want to do" position is bull.

The complete statement is "illegal laborers do the work Americans don't want to do AT A PARTICULAR PRICE".

In other words, by undercutting the intersection of supply & demand curves on a classic price versus quantity graph, they do a disservice to our market economy. If they're so industrious, then solving the problems in their own countries of origin ought to be a piece of cake, right?

...the crux of the republican support for illegal immigration.

[GO DAWG GO]

Sammy,

Good presentation...good information. Some of the things that are never mentioned are the "hidden costs." Remember these tangible values in our business classes in college? such as: My car insurance is $60 dollars more a month because of uninsured motorists. We pay a surtax to offset low income phone usage "Verizon." Ambulances are charging private parties and insurances exorbitant fees to offset there losses from uninsured illegals. What about the infrastructure usage roads, highways, graffiti cleanup gang associated law enforcement and crime.

What about water and electricity usage? So-Cal is in a drought and will have to ration water. Would we if 10 million illegals went home?

Last: Take a good look at LA...What a mess! graffitti ravaged, crime ridden and gang infested.

Porsche-O-Phile..Your bill was outstanding. Your a great thinker and writer. Kudos

[nostatic]

The Center for Immigration Studies. Well, if they have a web site and publish stuff, it must be the truth, right?

Funny, but there is no mention of their board, no links to the cvs of their director or other writers, and very little information in general.

Hey, I think I'll open up a "non-partisan think tank" and publish whatever I believe too. It's fun...we should all do it!

[GO DAWG GO]

Kinda like Global Warming and Al Gore? Nostatic, Buddy, the left is trying to abolish your think tank with the Fairness Doctrine. Your own party doesnt want you to think without their help.

I want to meet you at King Taco...AND TALK! Are you back from Pismo?

Bob

[the]

Originally posted by nostatic
i think the hospital closings are more about uninsured patients and health care costs rather than "illegal" status of the people coming through the doors.

You too! Why do you put "illegal" in quotes? Have they not entered the country illegally? Isn't their immigration status illegal? Or is there some doubt to that, such that illegal is a term that may not be accurate?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by the
You too! Why do you put "illegal" in quotes? Have they not entered the country illegally? Isn't their immigration status illegal? Or is there some doubt to that, such that illegal is a term that may not be accurate?

I guess all the illegals are insured
A friend is a nurse, he daughter was dating an illegal, who had leukemia, and guess who is paying for his treatments??? Joe Tax-payer, that is who!! He has had 2 DUI, and was able to walk with no punishment BOTH times

[nostatic]

still in Pismo. I put "illegal" in quotes because it seems to be a blanket term for a fairly diverse group of people. I just don't see this as a black and white issue...like many things in life it is more complicated. I've repeatedly said my solution: fine the businesses. Don't blame the individuals.

So this friend of my uncle's brother, he knew these 3 illegals who killed his sister then went to the emergency room to get cancer treatment while buying beer with food stamps. Crazy times...

[the]

Originally posted by nostatic
still in Pismo. I put "illegal" in quotes because it seems to be a blanket term for a fairly diverse group of people. I just don't see this as a black and white issue...like many things in life it is more complicated. I've repeatedly said my solution: fine the businesses. Don't blame the individuals.

I think it is used to describe people that have entered this country, umm . . . illegally. That seems fairly black and white.