Why drive a Prius?

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by CurtEgerer
I predict there will be a lot of trend setters trading in their Prius's for a Smart car next year

Funny thing, my wife's been thinking she might like the Smart car as an alternative to a Mini Cooper. Her use would primarily be for local errands in the DC metro area. I wonder if these Smart cars are up to the task of cruising significant distances on the freeway with their small engines and tall, narrow profile (relative to their wheelbase length).

[speeder]

Originally posted by CurtEgerer
I've had the opposite experience with VW. I've got 3 Jetta TDI's (03 - 175K, 04 - 110K, 05 - 90K miles) and will soon be adding a 4th. No reliability/quality-control issues with any of them. We pretty much abuse the crap out of these things. I've found they're VERY difficult to find and command a premium on the used market.

Also, owning a car that is efficient doesn't necessarily mean one is a global warming lemming. I'm the biggest 'denier' you'd ever want to meet I also save $200 per vehicle per week in fuel costs versus the old vehicles we were driving. That's real money in my pocket to spend on gas-guzzling weekend fun cars.

I'm just curious, Curt, how do you put so many miles on these cars? Are they delivery vehicles or something? You would need to run them around the clock at speed to accomplish that.

Diesels are the best for high-milers, no debate.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Here's what I don't get about the hybrid rage: my in-laws have a Mazda 3. Pretty basic car, smaller engine (2.0?) and an automatic. Nice, quality car, and pretty decent to drive for a commuter appliance. They paid about $15k for it new. Mixed it gets about 30 MPG, up to about 34 MPG on the highway. Prius *starts* at a bit over $22k, and real world results put it at about 40 MPG for normal mixed driving.

30 MPG for $15k, or 40 MPG for $22k? Beyond that though, this is what passes for revolutionary technology? Using a very complicated system to get 25% better MPG than an average car, at a pretty large premium? Even better, using complicated technology to get the same MPG as a relatively simple diesel? I just don't get it.

Sink the money into improving gas engine efficiency, as well as reducing diesel emissions. I'm all for new technology, but hybrids are not the answer. The research dollars should go into hydrogen and fuel cells, because that is where the most potential lies.

[trader220]

I'll be a test case when our prius comes in to see what "real world" mpg we get.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by trader220
I'll be a test case when our prius comes in to see what "real world" mpg we get.

There is plenty of data and long term logs out there to show you'll get between 35 and 48mpg with your Prius.

[trader220]

I'lll let you know what I get with my wife's driving style and a little of mine...

[Jim Richards]

How about one of these hybrids? from www.speedtv.com



Toyota Hybrid Wins 24-hour Race
Written by: Autocar staff
Tokyo, Japan – 7/18/2007
Toyota's winning hybrid: next stop Le Mans? (Autocar photo) MORE

Toyota created a small piece of motor racing history last week (July 15-16) when a hybrid-powered V8 Supra HV-R stormed to victory in Japan’s Tokachi 24-hour race, leading the grueling event from start to finish.

The race, in the northern isle of Hokkaido, is Japan’s classic around-the-clock enduro and holds a special attraction for Toyota: to prove the strength and effectiveness of its hybrid system on home turf under full-on racing conditions.

In 2006, Toyota first entered at Tokachi with a near-standard GS450h. Confounding some skeptics, the car went the distance, finishing 17th overall.

This year’s attempt was a lot more serious. Toyota built this special hybrid-powered Supra just for the race, with overall victory very much the focus.

On the face of it, this Supra HV-R comes over as a curious mix of past, present and future. The starting point is one of the works-backed Supras left over from Japan’s 2005 domestic Super GT series.

Underneath, Toyota devised a completely new racing hybrid drivetrain, basing it around the same 4.5-liter V8 that the Supra had previously used in Super GT. In race trim, this V8 is air-restricted to around 480hp.

The key point with the new system is its two in-wheel electric motors up front, each developing 10kW. At the back, Toyota has a second, more powerful electric motor packing 150 kW.

It’s a complex setup, but the idea is to have the Supra recover energy to power the hybrid system more efficiently under heavy deceleration and braking.

A further tweak is the Supra’s quick-charging capacitor, used instead a conventional rechargeable battery.

Toyota’s Supra HV-R took to the grid as the only car in the GT1 class and ran in the lead right to the checkered flag, even though the first half of the race was hit by atrocious weather, with heavy rain and poor visibility.

While the HV-R faced little opposition this year, the pressure was still on to complete the race and achieve what’s the first ever race victory for a hybrid-powered car.

What happens now, Toyota isn’t saying. According to an insider, the Supra body was used this year because there wasn’t time to build a special shell to go over the new racing hybrid system.

Having conquered the Tokachi 24-hours, Toyota may well be looking now to a much bigger stage. The obvious place to go next would be Le Mans, to prove the might of Toyota hybrid technology against the Audi and Peugeot diesels. Don’t bet against it.

Peter Nunn/Autocar magazine.

[Rick Lee]

Yeah, I bet Toyota's giving those away.

[Jim Richards]

you haven't received yours yet, RL?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I drive an '06 Jetta TDI now and I'm pretty happy with it. I get 36-41 mpg but given I have to run the A/C full blast and cruise at 80 mph that's pretty good.

While I haven't utilized it yet, I enjoy having the option of pissing in the oil companies' corn flakes.

[jyl]

Originally posted by lendaddy
There is plenty of data and long term logs out there to show you'll get between 35 and 48mpg with your Prius.

Under the worst-case conditions, the Prius can get 35 to 37 MPG - for a few months.

For me, to get such low MPG required all of the following: (1) short trips (<5 mile) in freezing weather (engine runs a lot just to warm itself up) (2) brand-new Prius and Prius driver (not broken in and don't know how to drive it) (3) 100% city route that climbs a big hill, but speed limit/traffic prevents from coasting freely back down it. For a few months there, I was getting 35-37 MPG.

By the way, in the same weather and route, my 911 was getting mid-teens MPG and the damn Range Rover couldn't even get in the double-digits.

In the same conditions but just eliminate the freezing weather and the brand-new part, I get 45 MPG. This is still short trips in 100% city and with that hill.

If the trips are longer, the route flatter, or more highway driving, I consistently get over 50 MPG.

Based on my personal experience w/ the Prius, and communicating with many other Prius drivers, I'd say a Prius driven under normal conditions in a "normal manner" will average low-40s to high-40s MPG city and 50+ MPG highway. If the driver uses the driving tricks that work for the hybrid system, he can do better. If he is a total leadfoot, he can do worse.

[jyl]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
Here's what I don't get about the hybrid rage: my in-laws have a Mazda 3. Pretty basic car, smaller engine (2.0?) and an automatic. Nice, quality car, and pretty decent to drive for a commuter appliance. They paid about $15k for it new. Mixed it gets about 30 MPG, up to about 34 MPG on the highway. Prius *starts* at a bit over $22k, and real world results put it at about 40 MPG for normal mixed driving.

30 MPG for $15k, or 40 MPG for $22k? Beyond that though, this is what passes for revolutionary technology? Using a very complicated system to get 25% better MPG than an average car, at a pretty large premium? Even better, using complicated technology to get the same MPG as a relatively simple diesel? I just don't get it.

Sink the money into improving gas engine efficiency, as well as reducing diesel emissions. I'm all for new technology, but hybrids are not the answer. The research dollars should go into hydrogen and fuel cells, because that is where the most potential lies.

The Prius gas mileage is more like high-40s MPG mixed (real-world), which is around 60% better than the Mazda 3 numbers you use, and it is a significantly nicer, more upscale car than the Mazda 3.

Sure, you can pick some bottom-basement economy car and show that the MPG-to-dollar ratio is as good or better than the Prius or the VW TDI for that matter. But you wouldn't willingly drive a Toyota Yaris or Hyundai Accent, and neither will I. (The best MPG-to-dollar ratio would be from buying some used economy car, e.g. a beater 1980s VW Rabbit for $500.)

I agree that long-term, a hydrogen or fuel cell or some other technology would be the goal. Unfortunately, you cannot buy a hydrogen or fuel cell car today, and if you did, you wouldn't be able to refuel it in your neighborhood much less in Nowhereville, AR. So that is not an option at the present.

AFAIK, it isn't so much an R&D issue. The technology for fuel cell cars exists right now. But the infrastructure of refueling stations and distribution does not. So, for now, hybrids and diesels are the best we can do.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I don't see how a Prius is any better than a Yaris. It's basically a Yaris with eco-snob appeal. From what I've seen of the interior, I wouldn't rate it any better than a Mazda 3, which is quite high quality for it's price range.

The numbers you use are higher than I have seen quoted, but Prius MPG can vary highly with driving habits. 40 is the number I have often seen for mixed driving, normal habits. I know that Prius owners like to make a game of it, and master the "skills" of high MPG.

Also, the quotes of higher MPG rating for the highway are the exact opposite of what I have seen. My understanding was that hybrids get better MPG in the city, where the regenerative braking charges the batteries. Thus, the car is able to spend more time under electric power. On the highway, with no braking, it is just a gas motor. Even the Toyota site has a 9 MPG lower rating on the highway.

[dd74]

Originally posted by jyl
The technology for fuel cell cars exists right now. But the infrastructure of refueling stations and distribution does not. So, for now, hybrids and diesels are the best we can do.

Schwarzenegger is making a huge push in Cali for someone to build these refueling stations. I think it could be a good "futures" investment. Anyone else on board?

[jyl]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
I don't see how a Prius is any better than a Yaris. It's basically a Yaris with eco-snob appeal. From what I've seen of the interior, I wouldn't rate it any better than a Mazda 3, which is quite high quality for it's price range.

The numbers you use are higher than I have seen quoted, but Prius MPG can vary highly with driving habits. 40 is the number I have often seen for mixed driving, normal habits. I know that Prius owners like to make a game of it, and master the "skills" of high MPG.

Also, the quotes of higher MPG rating for the highway are the exact opposite of what I have seen. My understanding was that hybrids get better MPG in the city, where the regenerative braking charges the batteries. Thus, the car is able to spend more time under electric power. On the highway, with no braking, it is just a gas motor. Even the Toyota site has a 9 MPG lower rating on the highway.

Personal tastes vary, so if you like the Mazda 3 / Yaris / Accent / other $13K car, well, to each his own.

I'm giving you MPG numbers from my personal experience. True, I am trying to learn the tricks of maximizing MPG. But, embarassingly, my wife actually gets similar mileage just driving normally.

I had also expected the Prius to get better mileage in the city than on the highway, for the reason you gave. But it turns out the reverse is true, in the real world.

One reason, I think, is that on the highway the Prius is a very aerodynamic car (Cd 0.26, lower than almost any other production car, and frontal area is small, so CxA is very low) with a pretty tiny gasoline motor (only 70hp) and low-rolling-resistance tires. So it gets high MPG, at normal highway speeds anyway.

In the city, the aero doesn't help much, and the car's weight is more of an issue (2900 lbs, vs 2600 lbs for a Corolla) as it has to be accelerated and braked. Only a part of the energy used to accelerate can be recaptured in the regenerative braking - estimates I've read are that at most 50% can even theoretically be captured under perfect circumstances. In practice I assume it is significantly less. And if you do drive "from the battery" too much, so that the gas engine has to run to recharge the battery, that is also inefficient. (That is a mistake I often make).

Anyway, city driving does result in lower MPG than highway driving. The highest MPG potential is probably in rural / near-rural backroads where you can go for miles with no stoplights or traffic, but at 40 MPH instead of 70 MPH. Prius drivers with commutes like that can get well over 60 MPG. I'll never see that, with the routes we drive.

[johndglynn]

Originally Posted by jyl

Anyway, city driving does result in lower MPG than highway driving. The highest MPG potential is probably in rural / near-rural backroads where you can go for miles with no stoplights or traffic, but at 40 MPH instead of 70 MPH. Prius drivers with commutes like that can get well over 60 MPG. I'll never see that, with the routes we drive.

Bump for some more real-world, on-topic feedback.

Have had a Prius on loan from Toyota Fleet for the last two days (they have given it to me for a week) and it is a really good, even great car. So great that I have been out late in it for the last two nights, drove 60 miles to buy a magazine last night and invented an excuse tonight to go see a buddy I haven't seen for 18 months.

Economy on a UK gallon is excellent. I am getting 56 and not sparing any horses a lot of the time, 80mph on two-lane highways and 65/70 on the back roads I know well. I am learning how to get the best out of the powertrain, for sure there is an art involved in getting those last few mpg consistently. These low-resistance tyres hang on too, plenty of grip on soaking wet roads tonight.

Only downsides are the non reach-adjustable steering wheel, no heated seats or auto-dimming mirror (two of my favourite toys) and the steep angle to the throttle pedal, but not the end of the world. Love the ease of use, the simple controls, the dash layout and displays, the excellent sat nav, and it goes well too.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

I know people think they're doing the right thing and saving tons of money by driving a Prius instead of the SUV, but realistically, all there going to do is sell the SUV so someone else can drive it and pollute. Now maybe if they had the SUV destroyed so no one else could drive it, that would be a direct replacement. And from a financial standpoint it will take years to break even on the gas savings. Prius= good marketing to gullible liberals.

All true. But "some" commie chicks are HOT! Man, you don't want to get laid enough to lie a bit?

[trader220]

Just an update we got the Prius 3 weeks ago and gone 900 miles average MPG is aroud 42 and change ... mostly with the AC on. My wife is a lead foot and she puts on about 65% of the miles. I do a lot better then she does MPG wise. The bluetooth is a PITA since we both have different brand phones and we cant even down load either of our phone books.

[jyl]

I think the Prius should recognize which key fob is being used and record MPG for each fob i.e. each driver. Irritating when you are trying to get good mileage and your leadfoot wife isn't (like mine, who accelerates up to each red light).

[CurtEgerer]

I saw some info on the new 2008 VW BlueMotion TDI Golf/Jetta. VW is rating it at 52MPG. That's a 10MPG increase over the current TDI And I'll bet you can squeeze 60MPG+ out of it on the highway if you try hard. The article was predicting that VW is going to lose the diesel game in North America to Honda if they don't start marketing (I don't think I've ever seen a VW diesel commercial on TV?). Apparently Honda has a diesel assault planned soon.

Denis - my TDI's are company vehicles. 1 is mine, the other 2 are my employees' vehicles. We each drive 60-70K per year. The 10,000 mile oil change interval helps some.

BTW: I was in traffic with a Smart car today in Detroit. Those things look even smaller when in traffic. Think golf cart.