I'm in complete agreement on every point. To me, hunting is "fair chase", or it is not hunting at all. Down on the ground with the intended prey, on my own pair of hind legs, getting close enough to count whiskers.

I have hunted bears and cats behind dogs. I have hunted from a tree stand. I derived no satisfaction from either. Either is the province of someone who "must" fill a tag, not to feed themselves and their family, but to feed their egos. Bragging rights at the bar. The long range game snipers fill this bill as well.

There is a great deal that has gone wrong with modern hunting; virtually all of it driven by man's ego and competitiveness. Guys have to out-do their buddies. How they accomplish that, in the realm of sport hunting, has devolved into a shameful technology race in one respect, and a compromising of the ethics of fair chase in another.

There is something very right, however, about being in the quite woods, or out on the prairie, or on a ridge top, actually hunting. Life, and our place in the world, will never be more clear than it is when we are really hunting, and doing it right. Playing the game fairly.

And yes, a .30-30 is all one would need to go after an animal like this, provided one is a hunter. The largest bear ever taken was killed by a native Alaskan with a .30-30 that was far older than he was. The most popular caliber in Alaska today? The lowly .223. Inuits kill polar bears and seals with them with monotonous ease. They are hunters. That pipsqueak little .223, or the old .30-30, are a damn sight better than what their forefathers used in the same pursuit.

It's manbearpig!

Yes, the vast majority of man/bear problems are caused by the "man" half of the equation. People do stupid things all the time. Like the old Honda ad in the motorcycle magazines said, "stupid hurts". Nowhere is this more true than around large predators.

I will be interested to hear how he scores. I'm thinking close to 28".

Anyway, it is an unfortunate fact regarding large predators that as they go past their prime, they are forced to look for ever easier prey. A guy this size needs a lot of calories just to stand there and breathe every day. His usual sources get harder and harder to catch as he gains size and gets on in years. He is looking for any source of protein all of the time, just to keep his immense bulk up and running. We are the slowest, easiest to catch source of protein walking through his domain. Once they get past their fear of us (through the desperation only hunger can evoke), and learn most of us cannot fight back, the jig is up.

I agree none of this is real hunting, but it's the only way rich wall street bankers are ever going to get a "trophy."

I would never do any of that with the exception of tree stands. Animals don't need to see you to know you're there. Their sense of smell and hearing is many times our own. Besides, maybe after 10,000 years of being hunted from tree stands evolution will cause them to start looking up, thereby strengthening the survival quotient of the species.

People seem to forget we ARE a part of nature and the food chain.

I don't think it always matters where you are. Danimal posted linked cases as extreme as a bear taking an infant off the front porch of her home and killing her. (page 3).

A large wild animal is a huge threat to anyone that it feels like killing. Armed or no. Danimal even posted a case where an armed hiker fired 2 rounds with a rifle scoring at least one hit, and was still eaten.

When a bear or cat or any other big wild animal wants you dead, you better be armed and a damn fine shot with a cool head, or you're most likely totally fked.

As far as that "stupid biker", that was an American minding his own damn business and enjoying the countryside and parks that his tax dollars paid for. This is the United States of America(ns), not the United States of Bears. He should have been more alert, but this was a perfectly innocent man. If it had been another human that had killed him in the same circumstances, we would rightfully call him a monster.
I hope that bear was found and put down like the murderer that it was.

Besides, how much did Grizzly man's knowledge of bears help him?

What made the biker truly stupid was that he was "near a salmon stream in the late evening sun" in bear country......unarmed. That's just plain stupid.

What isn't Jeff? Isn't the central focus of this board about racing and performance machines made to stoke man's ego and competitive spirit?

Aint that kind of what drives our entire species to excel? Isn't it, you know, what defines us?

.223 cal is illegal to even hunt large game with in most states.

How you gonna knock the hunter for using legal calibers with "overkill" potential to add a safety margin in a charge or to prevent excessive suffering by scoring a quick clean kill?

Lame Jeff. Quite lame.

I know a guy that hunts whitetails with a .22LR at night, shoots them right in the eye using a street lamps reflection(he does not self illuminate them ever). is this guy a "real hunter" (the man has killed hundreds of deer), or a filthy poacher?

You tell me.

I knew another fellow that owns a bar in upstate Pa, an old timer (probably dead now), who had a Black bear head over the bar. He shot it something like 11 times with a .30-30 in a charge situation. After examination he said he felt like most of the hits were clean killing shots. This guy was a looooong time hunter. He went out and bought a .300 Weatherby magnum after that IIRC.

I'm sorry but IMO a .30-30 is inadequate for killing large Grizzlies if things don't go according to plan. Considering that Murphy is a hunter, it's wise to plan for the unexpected. I would not even use a .30-06, and i think very, very few "experts" would recommend anything that small either.
Sure old old old time hunters used weaker weapons. Old old old time hunters also got killed and mauled more often too.

Something to consider.

Seriously, IMO, the desire to use too little weapon to prove your hunting skill(to yourself or anyone else) is IMO far more ego based than using too much. And far less humane- and obviously far less safe.

[QUOTE=m21sniper;4557630]You served? In the military? The US military? What was your branch and MOS? [QUOTE]

Why does that sound so strange to you? I served in two different militaries. The US and what was then the Rhodesian Army when there was a Rhodesia. But that was when I was young and full of the same BS that passes for enlightenment in much of the US.

It surprises me greatly.

What was your branch and MOS?

And why the need to insult "your" countrymen for absolutely no reason douche bag? It's for things like this that so many people here don't like you. That was completely out of left field and totally uncalled for.

Man you really are an ignorant....

How have I ever insulted the US?
By not agreeing with your type of mental midgets?
Then I proudly plead guilty.

Again, attacks totally out of left field for seemingly no reason whatsoever. And not on any one person, but on seemingly all Americans. You are definitely the biggest douche this forum has ever seen, at the very least since i've been here.

What was your branch and MOS?

What does my branch (Army) or MOS (18B) have to do with anything? Your emotional diatribes about various subjects that you clearly have very little knowledge about or education in are ledgendary on this BBS.

But that is your SOP.

Ah, so in addition to 2,083 degrees you are also an expert bear and big game hunter. And a an 18 Delta Green Beret too! Well, how about that....frenchy, a Green Beret.

Well, that figures. I should have known.

Rocket scientist, big game and bear hunter, green beret.

Wow, you really are the coolest man alive, aren't you??? I bet you even devised Sage Robin, didn't you? Did you invent the atomic bomb too? Were you also a Navy SEAL? How about a Naval Aviator? Were you once Captain of the Titanic too?

I asked you your branch and MOS because it's pretty much SOP to do so among vets. It's part of normal conversation.

"I was in the military."
"Oh, really, what branch and MOS?"

For anyone else but a dick like you, it's just normal conversation among vets. Genuine soldiers typically answer that question reflexively without hesitation. But then, there are no others like you, so i guess the things that apply to us normal Americans don't apply to you...

I really don't like you Frenchy. But then, i am far from alone here. I am sure you have made even more new friends with this little bout of oral diarrhea of yours.

Must be why i get so many PM's.

Because no one values my opinion or conversation. :)

There are a few pelicans that don't even post here anymore that still PM me to discuss topics on PPOT/PARF. Probably not after this though....sheesh, once they read what you've written about me here, they will probably never talk to me again!

RPKESQ and Sniper: Go to your rooms!!!
Best,
Tom

No way man, he's a green beret.

He'll cut my ears off and make them into a necklace!

Sniper, you're a strange guy.

I think you're the new Fastpaste.

Occasionally you are interesting.

But very often it's all dross.

The quantity goes up and the quality goes down.

I'm getting bored with the volume of you're posts—almost all of which are belligerent and full of hubris.

I thought the repo business would be up in these economically difficult times.

You should be out there making some money.

Why do you read them?

I was, then i got ran over.

Now i'm....ran over.

And to think we had been getting along so well lately. Been months upon months since we've bared claws at one another. Oh well, love and kisses to you too dottore. :)

Say, you're not a green beret are you?

Mr Higgins it is always a pleasure to read your posts about hunting.

A guy who hunts who gets it.

Like everything else in this world, hunting has been invaded by corporate jerks. Hunting for 'the biggest' and the 'the most' completely overshadows what being a hunter is about.

I can only speak for me.

Hunting is about sacrafice. Its about going to where the animals live, not where you have caged them. Its about hunting animals on their own turf. It about not shying away from the elements your prey must endure. Its about understanding your prey as a part of a larger system, and using that to your advantage.

Hunting is also about killing. Not in some 'Hey Dude! Check out this wicked deer I nailed!' way. No killing is a suprisingly quiet affair. The crack of a rifle is loud, but that is a tiny point in a hunt that could take days. Killing should be deliberate, and with purpose.

I guess if someone is willing to gut out a large animal and eat it, well then I'm not one to pass judgement. But it bugs me when people seem to think its some kind of god damn MTV thing.

Killings personal.

How do you get them to hold still when you mount them? Do you have to be concerned about STDs?

O.K. back to the original post, man that was one big bear; backpackers beware!

Both excellent posts.

Growing up hunting rabbits, birds and deer in MN, I appreciate the sentiment here.

and with reverence.

The largest wild animal I have ever been hunting when I was younger is the beaver. The last one I caught was not shot. Instead, I brought it home and domesticated it. They actually make friendly pets once out of the wild.

Tom,

Not yet, I'll go with him. Sniper is really getting to the heart of something that needs to be done. Give him a little room, these are good questions.

Fixed if for you.

Dottore, I understand your point. I probably get on your nerves too. But with this french guy let sniper drill in on him just a bit. There is some stuff going on here that is interesting.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237643241.jpg

Rika

Wow, that is how I see it! Many hunters that I knew, even those that had a trophy compassion were big time into conservation. They walked the walk and talked the talk to politicians etc for the money and effort to preserve the outdoors in many of its forms.

How old would that bear have been?

Well I didn't see that bear sporting camo and carrying a dirty great weapon that he can shoot back with from over a hundred meters.

dewolf,

Those bears only drink Aussie beer and we gotta put a stop to it cause it is affecting our supply! Can you send more.:rolleyes:

I have only heard stories, I don't hunt bears. But they are capable from what I understand. what I find interesting is the guys that know about these huge animals insight on the large older bears and what is driving them. It is reflective our own lives in many ways.

Hunting can be an escape from all of that.


I realize that the .223 is illegal in most states. That does not take away from the fact that it is the most popular caliber in Alaska, and that native Alaskans use it to good effect.

Please show me where I "knocked" legal hunters for using legal calibers. I simply did not.

I'm sure you already know. What does this have to do with anything I said?

Phil Shoemaker, a Master Guide in Alaska, is on record as saying he would happily hunt the biggest bears in the land with his .30-'06. Mr. Shoemaker "gets it". Shot placement is far more important than caliber. No .300 wonder mag will ever make up for that. Too many that use them believe that they will, and wind up taking risky or poor shots with them

I have never expressed any desire to use too little weapon. I was simply pointing out what others use, and how effective they are with their choice of weapons. I regularly hunt with the .375 H&H, .45-70 with my heavy hand loads, and the .458 Winchester Magnum. Alas, I also use calibers that guys like you would deem "inadequate", like the .30-30, 6.5 Swede (my favorite, actually), and round ball muzzle loaders. When used properly, all kill quickly and humanely, regardless the size of the animal. When we take the time to hunt them, and have the patience to wait for that one sure shot.

the Bear is winning..
he's dead...
but he has alot of friends..
thanks guys

Rika

Jeff,

All good points. I have learned much. Shot placement and patience, yes gotta go with that.

What about the folks that come up for a first time shot at a big bear. How is that approached by the guides and experienced hunters. Say a new guy in your group. Is he outfitted differently that the veterans? I have some idea regarding the answer, but you have some pretty good insight as well as others. I think a few Alaskan's would know a little more about this. It is educational.

Rika,

Like Guido the Griz and his crew?

I realize that the .223 is illegal in most states. That does not take away from the fact that it is the most popular caliber in Alaska, and that native Alaskans use it to good effect.
Jeff, the .223 may or may not be the most popular in Alaska but I disagree nonetheless. 30 cal is the most popular and successful in Alaska; it has brought down more game in AK than any other cal. The 30-30 is the rifle of choice among Alaska natives along the Kuskokwim River between Bethel and McGrath. So I'm not sure where your information originates from.
Last summer two guided bow hunters snuck up on a salmon foraging McNeil griz just outside of the preserve. It was a beautiful golden brown and yellow creature. Caught on tape these bow hunters failed to successfully bring the animal down and the kill shot came from the guide. Embarrassed, these so-called hunters and the guide complained to the state board of game that their hunt was interferred with; which subsequently was found to have no merit. Bottom line is this, if the hunt is sport then it should be labeled as such and the hunted shouldn't be referred to as game.
Killing for sport shouldn't be confused with killing for survival or subsistence. It is what it is, murder.

Ok couple of points on this thread....
First of all,, that bear was not wasted nearly 100% chance it was eaten by another bear. If not a bear then something else.. I can post a picture of over 30 bald eagles eating on a bear carcass.. For those of you who hold animals in such high regard what's the difference if a person eats the meat or some other animal?? BTW,, brown bears ( grizzlies) are virtually ineadible,, you are what you eat and since they survive mostly on rancid meat, they don't taste so good
If your'e hunting bear responsibly you only kill the large old males, and since bear cubs have a 50% mortality rate of which 90% of those deaths are caused by male bears.. YOu're actually doing the species a favor.
More bears have been killed by 30 06 than any other caliber and yes it can be and still is done regularily. 375 H&H is the caliber of choice however.
Where bear hunting is legal and controlled ( AK and BC) the bear population is on the increase.

Quote:

More bears have been killed by 30 06 than any other caliber and yes it can be and still is done regularily. 375 H&H is the caliber of choice however. Where bear hunting is legal and controlled ( AK and BC) the bear population is on the increase.

I don't think the science supports the increase in population, at least not in AK. What we're seeing here in AK is increased hunting pressure that is translating into a frenzy that has resulted in the board of game using helicopters to kill wolves and bears. The real pressure on the moose population are urban (Anchorage) hunters that don't have a real need for the game but to satisfy some sort of ego thing.
Sadly, for the most part, the wolves and bears will adjust but at some point the table will tip in the other direction and some of this stuff becomes really expensive to correct.

[QUOTE=m21sniper;4557994]Ah, so in addition to 2,083 degrees you are also an expert bear and big game hunter. And a an 18 Delta Green Beret too! Well, how about that....frenchy, a Green Beret.

Well, that figures. I should have known.

Rocket scientist, big game and bear hunter, green beret.

Wow, you really are the coolest man alive, aren't you??? I bet you even devised Sage Robin, didn't you? Did you invent the atomic bomb too? Were you also a Navy SEAL? How about a Naval Aviator? Were you once Captain of the Titanic too?

I asked you your branch and MOS because it's pretty much SOP to do so among vets. It's part of normal conversation.
[QUOTE]

This pearl of an emotional diatribe comes from a person whose calls himself: m21sniper. Let's just examine that. Really. Only an insecure braggart tells one and all about himself like that. I have never met a real sniper in any country's military who touted his past supposed occupation like you do. I answered concerning my military experience when repeatedly asked. You wear it on your sleeve like the high school jock that won the big game and then never amounted to much.

I have three degrees, but your repeated exaggerations concerning my education is just your insecurity expressing itself again. Instead of improving yourself and expanding your knowledge and wisdom you repeatedly reject education and belittle it. This is so typical from the insecure uneducated. Again my education has only come up when I am repeatedly asked "how would I know" and "what makes you an expert". You ask and then hold the answer up for ridicule. As always, pure insecurity from you.

I am never the first to bring these things up. I don't wear my experiences or accomplishments on my sleeve. I participate not in every chain yanking thread or in threads that have no personal interest, but only in threads where I have first hand, educated knowledge or experience. I make mistakes and errors as everyone does. I always apologize and offer corrections. You state you don't like me, like I should care! I have never attempted to be "liked" or to "fit" in. I don't care who agrees or disagrees with me. I have been able to meet many great people here. But some nitwits too. C'est la vie.

You, on the other hand, stick your nose into many threads, with strident opinions based on anecdotal or hearsay evidence at best. It is only getting worse. You are the guy who always has to join in every conversation, loudly and boisterously to try and fit in with the boys. This thread is a perfect example. Your hunting experience is so self-evidently low as to be comical.

I have seldom been asked by adults "what branch and MOS". This is a question from people who have peaked early on or in awe of what they themselves cannot do. Again insecurity is shouted from every one your emotional diatribes you posts.

Try to grow up.

To others on this thread, I apologize for taking up your time with this reply.

A word about bear hunting. I usually go fly fishing in Alaska in the fall. My last trip was during the opening of bear season. We spend all day wading the rivers with the bears. Peace, tranquility and big fish. The bears are everywhere. They are fat and lazy, pretty much ready for hibernation when the snows come.

The day before bear season opens we see a few small tents on the banks of the Nonvianuk river. They are hunters getting ready for opening day. Hunting Alaska's big bears like this is an obscenity. It's no more sporting than shooting cows in a pasture. All you have to do is walk 50 yards to the river. Look left...bears. Look right...bears. I took this picture of my buddy Tad fishing. How sporting would it be to shoot these bears?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237652630.jpg

RPKESQ: Your education comes up constantly because of your propensity for telling people they're wrong on a wide variety of subjects then tossing out your degree as soon as you're questioned.

In order to tell someone they don't know what they're talking about in a wide variety of subjects, you are implying that you DO know what you're talking about in that same wide variety of subjects...

What's more, rarely will you see people throw around their degrees here if told to "prove it."

No, instead, they just simply lay out their argument based on whatever they perceive the facts to be and usually back it with links. It takes a special kind of douche to start babbling on about "I have an advanced degree and you're wrong!" on a message board and expect people to just take your word for it. Your debate skills suck, which is IMO why you always toss your degree out there.

There are several people on this forum that have seen you in action time and time again and flat out do not like you because of exactly this sort of crap. And seriously, shouldn't a guy that claims to have 3 degrees be able to figure out how the damn quote function here works?

As far as my screen name, on any military forum you will see tons of posters with screen names that relate to their former MOS.

Names like "Sky soldier", "EOD man", "Officer of Engineers", "Bradley TC", "M60dude", "Viper driver", "Phantom fixer" or whatever else are par for the course, be they tankers, pilots, EOD, Engineers, whatever.

This is very common practice on military forums, just as it is very common practice to use car based names on car forums, or music forums etc, etc, etc. Unit or branch patches/insignia are also commonly used as avatars by guys on said military forums.

FOR INSTANCE: Your signature is the motto of the British SAS. Let me guess...you were in the SAS too? :rolleyes:

I've been using this screen name since 2000 on a variety of boards, including the large military board i have ran for 6 years plus now.
Personally, i'm glad you don't like it.

One thing that i have never seen a 'real' troop do is be evasive about his MOS before. Just doesn't happen. I've also never met a far left 'operator' who openly speaks bad about his former country and it's people from the comfort of France either, but that is another story.

I personally think you are full of crap in every way it is possible to be full of crap. Which is probably why you're on so many people's ignore list.

And now you can add mine to the list too.

PS: My last post was not emotional, it was openly mocking. There is a vast difference. If you think i'm getting 'emotional' in any of these posts than you are making the extremely common internet/IM/email error of misjudging the tone in which the post you are reading was intended/made. Caps/italics/bold do not equate to emotion, but rather to emphasis.

Not very based on that picture.

Be careful up there man.

I pretty much grew up outdoors. My father was an avid hunter and outdoors man: very old school in his respect for the hunt and the quarry.

It was a passion of his, both the hunt and the friendship of the men in his company during the days of the chase. I was there from a very early age.

Beyond bird hunting and my quest to rid my farm of ground hogs, I do not share his passion for hunting deer, elk or any other large animal. I never got it, never will. I understand it, have witnessed hunting at what I believe to be an apex of skill and respect, but I find no pleasure in it.

I know why good hunters do, however.

I do love the intensity of feeling that comes from observing game from mere feet away. I just don't like pulling the trigger.

Seems the passion skipped a generation...my son is his grandfathers image.