Sniper,

I think you have made your point. RPEKSQ will never be forthright about it on this forum. If he has done all of the things he claims to have done, that is an easy day. But I concur, his tone is immensely mocking. There is more to this guy but it is a waste of time. I have seen educated idiots, and most of them wear their degrees on their sleeves. SO it is pointless to try and make a point with this guy. AND why as he is extremely critical and arrogant, regardless of the facts. There is just too much that has my caution meter pegging.

I agree with this entirely, however, sometimes due to target aspect you need a caliber that can get through the thickest bones/hide on an animal and still get into the vitals. Will a .30-30 even penetrate the skull of a grizzly if it charges? (Charges do happen, even white tail will charge sometimes after they get shot)

A .30-06 is a damn fine weapon, and many people are of the opinion that it is sufficient to hunt any animal in N.America, and it is- if everything goes right.

You can probably kill a Grizzly with a .22 WMR if you get the right shot. If you're a great stalker, you could probably even kill a bunch of them with a .22 WMR. But if something goes wrong...

Never meant to imply that you did.

Those seem like damn good choices to me.

"Guys like me" include the State game commissions of all 50 states that set minimum legal caliber requirements for the hunting of large game. I've hunted dear with .30-30 several times- it's a great caliber, especially in the terrain where i live, but i definitely would not choose that caliber to hunt Grizzly's with or to hunt on the open western plains with. I seriously, seriously doubt you would either. Then again i could just ask you- would you hunt grizzly with a .30-30?

Muzzle loaders due to their huge calibers are not really comparable to modern high velocity rifles IMO. Different animals entirely.

When all goes well. If you get a bit of bad luck or a untimely wind gust or an errant branch in your way(which is a huge consideration here in Pa), it can totally ruin an otherwise perfectly good shot, causing a wound or even an outright miss. 99% of the time that just means the animal gets away. But with a large predatory animal like a bear, if you don't have more shots, things can get very ugly very quickly.

My point is that Murphy is alive and well and he is a hunter. So plan accordingly.

As far as you and your knowledge, i think you definitely know what you're talking about in all things gun. 90+% of the time i agree with your gun points entirely. In the time i've been posting here i think the only time we ever disagreed on anything gun related prior to this was the JHP vs Cast bullet conversation.

Still, even among people with dozens of years of experience opinions will vary, and often greatly.

Roger that bro. He's back on ignore now. I should have never taken him off ignore to begin with.

I used to know a guy that hunted for bear with a bow...but carried a 357 magnum pistol for backup.

My brother shot a black bear with a long bow he made from scratch, but frenchy probably killed one with his bare hands while eating a croissant.

Moses, thanks for posting that picture. Still, there will be those thoroughly convinced that these mighty creatures have it out for human kind. Many will never understand the natural cycles of life which is what life is really all about in my opinion. I would also add that mere weeks earlier prior to the salmon this isn't something I would recommend.
And for anyone interested in knowing, the Gull Rock Trail south of Hope and the Resurrection Pass are great travel destination for anyone interested in visiting Alaska's back country. Is it important to be bear savy? Of course it is and that's why you rarely hear of bear-human contact in these areas. Still, it doesn't hurt to carry a Mossberg Cruiser just in case.

http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/story/9359737p-9270866c.html
Take the time to read this. Kat bears are human habituated due to the sancturary not far from where this bear was murdered. Call it what you want but this isn't hunting and it isn't fair chase. The only consolation I get out of it is the cowards can't go back to where they came from and make up some kind of great hunting story which is really just a couple of dorks in expensive gear that had to rely on a modern weapon to do their dirty work.

This video should be enough to keep everyone safe, we now know their weak spots

Mosses, great shots



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How very sad. This is why I stopped promoting many hunts, stopped participating in many and stopped supporting the Safari Club. I met more idiots than sportsmen, more cheaters than fair-chase adherents and more of the nitwits who tell you about how dangerous bears, great whites and liberals are. In short, more of the talentless, narrow-minded and ill educated, who are clearly insecure about their place in the world.

I gotta' disagree with you on this one.

Humans are known to feed on each other too - should we go around indiscriminately killing everyone just because they *might* end up being the one who's a Jeffery Dahmer?

I abhor hunting. Truly a disgusting pastime. And FWIW I'm completely unimpressed. Want to impress me? Go take the bear armed with exactly what the bear has - what it was born with. Then I'll agree with you that it's a "sport".

There is absolutely NO need to be going around slaughtering animals for no reason other than to go back home and brag to one's buddies (or online) about how "tough" one was because they happened to look through a scope and pull a trigger from long range - particularly when it's against defenseless animals like deer or elk.

Have I mentioned how utterly despicable this "sport" is?

I have no use for it - or those that participate in it, other than perhaps they give some justification for what's left of our Second Amendment to the politicians and unwashed masses who can't comprehend the intentions of the founding fathers when they provided us that right. To that end I suppose there might be SOME merit to it in this day and age, but it is still is a reprehensible behavior.

Note: If one is living in the remote wilds of Alaska, or the Amazon, or the Outback or somewhere like that hundreds of miles from habitation and NEEDS to hunt to survive, then fine. That ain't the case here. This is "sport" hunting at its most vile.

You're aware the Grizzly Bear is (among other things) the state animal of California and prominently featured on the state flag? They were all hunted to extinction in this state in the 1800s. Yep. Real fair fight there, huh? The bears must've really had an "even" chance huh? I really question the nature of someone that would just indiscriminately kill animals for no reason other than to brag about it. It's one very, very small step away from people who like to kill/torture animals for pleasure and that's one very, very small step away from those who end up becoming violent criminals or psychopaths. Why put onesself in that situation?

Sorry snipe (and others here) - I normally agree with you guys on a lot of things/issues, but this is one where I passionately disagree. I find this notion of just killing for the hell of it to be extremely unethical, in bad taste, despicable and the height of needless bravado. Can't some of you guys put your time/energy into something PRODUCTIVE? How about some legitimate conservation efforts? That'd be a good start... Something that actually BENEFITS our planet.

You didn't really just call deer and elk 'defenseless' did you?

Wow.

An elk can absolutely thrash a man with ease. No problem at all. The man would stand no chance at all.

When a man shoots an animal he is hunting with the tools god gave him. Opposable thumbs and intelligent reasoning.

The bear gets claws, elk get horns- we get thumbs.

BTW Jeff, Hunters pay for 75% of the budgets of all State conservation efforts in the US. (via special taxes and hunting/fishing licenses) If you took away the monies generated by hunting which are funneled directly into conservation causes, our herds would suffer mightily.

I agree with the poster earlier that asked why cows seem to be ok to slaughter wholesale, in an industrialized setting. Not many people seem to get too freaked out over eating a hamburger. I guess they're not "cute" or "majestic" enough.

I have never shot any animal that was not then eaten (By me or someone else). When i used to hunt, i did it the 'old fashioned way' that my uncle taught me. No lures, no scents, no decoys, no lights, no cheating.

I don't think anyone here, anyone, has endorsed the corporate hunts and game ranches or other types of "hunting" that people do so they can "brag."

LOL, great video man!

I don't think anyone here condones "canned" hunting at all, I sure don't. Heck on my property (86 acres) I have put in deer food plots for forage, not a lot of farms left around here. This buck was taken by a 12 year old last fall, nourishment for a family of 6, I feel good about that.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237671684.jpg

Well written. I completely agree.

I have a plethora of firearms, but I couldn't imagine killing an animal for "sport".

Maybe we could hunt death row inmates. They can think, cheat, etc. That seems to be more fair than picking off animals with high powered rifles.

I'm an active hunter, and even as we speak I have a venison and bear shepherd's pie cooking in the oven.

I do not hunt for trophies, but if a trophy presents itself, I will gladly take it. I have a rack mounted to the wall, and a bear-skin rug in front of my fireplace.

I will also take the entire animal with me out of the bush, every time, regardless of the work involved. My motivations for hunting do not include the desire for trophies.

I hunt with a great deal of reverence for the tradition, and choose to hunt in as true a fashion as I can; no tree stands, no dogs, no herding of animals, no 400 yard shots. That is my choice. I have the same scoped, bolt-action .30-06 I bought new when I was 16. I train every year to ensure that my shooting is up to the task, and 99% of my kills have been with a single shot.

My ageing father, who can't hardly walk any more, is usually set up with a chair in a small blind, and we do what we can to direct any wildlife near him to help increase his chances, and I have no qualms about doing that. He has enjoyed hunting his entire life, and I will not take that away just because of the frailties brought on by age.

Those people that wish to hunt in a more (to me) unsportsmanlike manner, well, that's their prerogative. I don't do it, and neither do any of my friends or hunting partners, but it just means that those others just don't "get it", in my opinion.

Hunting is also a very bittersweet thing... there is a mixture of joy and sadness when an animal is killed, but I take comfort in knowing that it was killed quickly and cleanly, and will not be wasted. I also take great satisfaction knowing that I can support myself in the wild, and don't need my food handed to me wrapped in styrofoam and cling-wrap.

My time hunting (19 years and counting) has also taught me more about the environment, and has increased my appreciation for and involvement with conservation.


I've hunted with a conservation officer for many, many years, and the stories he has are truly entertaining and enlightening. There are a few known "poachers" who hunt illegally to feed their families rather than be on welfare and food stamps. They are known, and their transgressions are overlooked. Rightfully so, in my opinion.


In the end, hunting is a very personal thing. Some people do it, others don't. It's almost as bad (good?) as religion for getting people arguing. If you don't like it, then don't do it.

I just ask that you don't think any less of me for hunting, just as I won't think any less of you for NOT hunting.


$0.02

And that is your choice, and I respect you for it. I'm just not a fan of people telling me that hunting is evil and I shouldn't do it. (Not saying that is what you're doing either).


I'd rather hunt a game animal for sport, and kill it cleanly, myself, than eat beef or poultry that has been "harvested" in a modern day slaughterhouse or rendering factory.


I have no problem harvesting and processing (killing and butchering) my own food. It's a much better option for me than relying on others to do it and burying my head in the sand.


Jamie Oliver had a great mini-series about travelling through Italy while cooking. He came across a village that did group hunts for wild boar, in order to feed the families of that village.

During that hunt, many of the children (6-10 years old), were introduced and educated about the hunting of the animals, and the respect demanded of the event. At first, Jamie was absolutely disgusted with that.

After thinking about it, and seeing the results of that education, he realized that it was all part of the chain of life in the world, and that he then planned on doing the same thing with his children.

It was a very powerful episode, and a lesson I think many more people need to learn.

Talk about your polarized body! This is all about modern man(urban man with lost connection to true nature, has a fantasy ideal of what nature really is), and natural man(still connected to the soil, and still recognizes natural reality). The two are not compatible and are not likely to belong to the same social club. The former has an exaggerated moral component that decries hunting and killing game, but easily buys packaged meat in the supermarket(remote kill of game), in fact depends on this system. The natural man buys meat in the supermarket and also keeps his skills for hunting and fishing, can clean and butcher a kill and eat it. It simply depends on who is doing your killing. Some guys like to kill their own game. Some can't or won't do it and pay others to do it for them. I will take a pass for a vegetarian, otherwise you omnivores that buy your kill in packages, get real. The guys that took the bear are likely also deer hunters or duck hunters that take game and consume them. For sure bears are not good eating and leaving the carcass in the forest to be eaten by other meateaters doesn't sound like it was a wasteful or irresponsible kill. To a natural man, a bear as big as Bruno in the picture would be a once-in-a-lifetime trophy well worth taking. Surely a bear that large was a dominant male and had his way with the ladies many times, ensuring his progeny will carry on in the big woods. Sometimes you eat the bear; sometimes the bear eats you.

I agree with what a lot of what you are saying, and I take your point.

So, I have no problem with people who hunt out of NEED. I think its good that people eat what they have hunted, as I find people who hunt simply for trophies useless.

Now, one point that my friends, who are avid hunters have made to me that truly resonates is as follows.

If you simply eat a burger or a steak that you pick up from the grocery store you have no idea of the life that was involved. My friend Chris stated that he didn't appreciate how special his meal was until he killed it. (It was a turkey, and he said he actually sat and thought about the life that he had taken).

Anyway, the point is, food is not a commodity, it was part of a life. He states that until people connect that thought they won't behave right. Meaning, that if we all respected the life that we so easily consume, we may not be as greedy and fat, etc. And that in turn would lead to more animals being spared.

I am not anti hunting per se. I am against hunting for the sake of merely killing.

I feel the same.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people equate hunting with exactly that, and that's just not what happens in the vast majority of hunting.

No, I would not. I'm merely relaying what others can accomplish with this "underpowered" cartridge. I will readily concede that the folks I'm referring too are far, far better hunters than I can ever dream of becoming. They live and breathe it in a way I simply cannot.

My circumstances dictate that when I do go after game such as this, I am limited by time. I must hire a guide, by law, to hunt game like this. That guide is certainly going to have his own ideas on what I need to bring, and a .30-30 is not on their short list. This is going to cost me a lot of money as well. All of these factors add up tome bringing a rifle and cartridge combination that will serve for a less than ideal shot. Shots that I would pass up on one of my local weekend sojourns after lesser game. Shots that the native Alaskan hunter will pass up, because he always has tomorrow, or next week, or next month. He has the virtue of an abundance of the most valuable commodity of all for guys like you and me - time.

I'm as human as the next guy. If my only chance at the bear of a lifetime was a "Texas heart shot" on one disappearing into an alder thicket, after three weeks in the coastal Alaskan rain, and flying out tomorrow... I don't think I could pass it up. I would sure love to be able to slip a 500 grain solid up the spout on the old .458...

Here at home, it's different. I could care less anymore if I have to pass up a shot on even a great mulie or bull elk because I'm carrying some "inadequate" antique or something. I've done my share of killing - it just doesn't matter to me anymore.

I have never heard of an elk attacking a human un-provoked. Do I have to start worrying about this now too? Bands of killer elk wandering the streets of LA spoiling for a good goring?

You must not spend much time in elk habitat during the rut. They get very, very aggressive. Everything is fair game. Including us. Not that this is a common problem or anything, but it is best to avoid all manner of cervid during their rut. Even the lowly, gentle white tail has killed more than a few guys. Not so much the wild ones, but the game farmed ones. Sweet justice in a way, I suppose.

I hear they are particularly put off by poor taste in hats. Best to wear a snappy one.

I suppose my point would be that if one stays out of their habitat then it is a non-issue.

There are other places to wear the hat ;)

And if you stayed in your apartment 100% of the time, odds are pretty good you'd never get hit by a car. Regardless of the hat you wore.


Being aware of your surroundings and being prepared can help mitigate the risk of just about any endeavour.

Jeff, I'm not rabidly anti-hunting. It really isn't for me but I understand the attraction on various levels. My point is that saying that one needs to be prepared to shoot an elk in self-defense is somewhat silly...unless you're there to hunt it. And in that case yes, you better be prepared. But if someone is just out for a hike, I'd guess that the odds of a good elk goring are near zero.

I am not a fan of bear meat to strong for my liking. I would not buy a bear tag because I would not consume it. I do enjoy seeing them at a distance. I see one or two Griz every year in the back country or on the roadways. Always a big thrill!

I have had several encounters with bears(Griz) here in Montana and Alaska the scariest was in Yellowstone Park back country in 1993 still gives me the shakes when I think about it. That was pre pepper spray (not that I have any confidence in PS). All I had was a swiss army knife. Firearms were not allowed in the park at that time Federal law. The bear charged us a few times got about 10 feet away.
I left my underware there.:D


I would not have any hesitation on defending my self or my party if the need arises. These are big tough critters, the local fish wildlife park officers carry .44 Mag & 454 for that reason. Up close you are still at a disadvantage with whose weapons.

One fish wildlife & parks guy told me "If you carry a .357 make sure you file the front site down so it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your arse".


Native Americans here kill everything with a .22 LR it may take a few rounds to put something down, you could kill a bear with a spear in fact it was the weapon of choice for a thousand years. That was when men were men.

Elk in rut, their (mating season) will run you over and gut you like a fish. But you need to be close if you are bow hunting. A bull elk can be very dangerous.

Female moose with calves are deadly if you run across one.

That's cool, but I live here in BC, and every year I see the news stories about people that drastically underestimate nature and end up either getting hurt or killed. (Don't get me started about the morons that go hiking or skiing out of bounds).

Around here, a 15 minute drive can land you smack dab in the middle of the wilderness and the wild animals that go along with it, and most of them have no idea how that wildlife behaves or what to do if you come into contact with it.

Hell, I've got black bears that roam around my place every couple of days. I doubt 99% of the people that walk around in the area have any idea what to do if they come into contact with one. One lady got her face ripped up last year as a result, and the black bear was tracked down and killed.


Elk are exactly like Jeff (Higgins) stated... they can be VERY aggressive. For instance, Banff National Park is closed to people during some parts of the year due to the overly aggressive nature of elk during that time (calving). That closing was brought upon by the long history of dangerous elk behaviour and the resulting injuries to people that were just out hiking.


I really think people should not be afraid to head out into the wild, or have fun. They should, however, educate themselves about the wildlife they are likely to meet, and take the appropriate precautions.

Shooting an animal in a non-hunting situation should be a last resort, but I've always been a firm proponent of the fact that it's better to have a gun and not need it, than it is to not have a gun and need it.

To put things into perspective, this is a common scene in the summer.

That's about 20' out of my office window.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237690085.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237689732.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237689783.jpg


This big guy in Mammoth, WY YNP Park HQ, has beat up several visitors from the city that think there tame. They will square off with pickup trucks in the rut.

Very fun to watch!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237690182.jpg

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Wandering the streets picking fights you say?

Here's one ramming cars. Moving cars.

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Don't mess with elk.

Great Videos !

The bull elk in the 2nd one is the same one I posted old #42? I think, he is famous for major damage. He kicks a couples peoples arse's every year. I watched him take the plastic grill out of a rental car with some out of country visitors a few years ago, priceless !

No Martha they are not tame.

The bison kills somebody every few years. The bears can claim 2-3 per year sometimes more, just in the park (YNP) only. I would rather have these as the hazards than some of the suff that is in the city. Animals are more predictable that some humans.

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I had an up close and personal with a Bison in the Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge just outside Fort Sill once back in the 80s.

You cannot appreciate how big and intimidating and powerful an animal like that is until you round a blind bend in the path and there's a 2,000lb Bison 6 feet in front of you, staring directly at you. This thing was motherloving huge.

The only thing between me and him was about 72" of air and a thin layer of clothing. They have been known to attack humans esp. if they have calves around, which i had been warned about by some buddies in my Company in advance, so i was seriously concerned for my safety.

Anyway, i just stood there staring directly at this guy for a good 30 minutes completely motionless until he wandered off. I remember thinking the whole time, "Don't start pawing at the ground." (bad bad sign)

Nothing happened, but if he wanted me dead there would not have been a damn thing i could have done about it, and i knew it.

It was definitely an epiphinal moment. (there are some pretty scary Bison attacks on youtube)

Here's a vid of a small one charging a motorcycle. The one i ran into was a full grown adult male. Huuuuuge animal.

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Yup, you are absolutely right. They are ridiculously easy to avoid. The rut only lasts a month, and most folks have to go seriously out of their way to even be around them. Those that live with them daily are, well... living in the wrong place. At least if they failed "rutting elk avoidance 101". It just ain't that hard. Folks that manage to get hurt by them pretty much bring it on themselves. Back to that Honda ad - "stupid hurts"...

I dunno, some of the vids i saw on youtube today were in residential areas and in most cases the Elk did not seem like they were in any way provoked.

Obviously this is just a small sampling of Elk attacks, but some of them seem to charge with no provocation at all. And hikers or bikers who are not hunting at all can definitely have their day ruined by any number of large animals.

It's not just a case of man intruding and provoking. Based on the attack records that Danimal and i posted today, it seems like some are very much not the victim's fault in the slightest. (not claiming to be an expert, but there are quite a few videos that anyone can watch on you tube and judge for themselves- i posted a few above)

Some of them are ABSOLUTELY the person's fault.

Watching the videos posted above, it is glaringly obvious to me that each and every situation shown was entirely avoidable. Most of us, save for the examples shown in these clips, are somewhat more intelligent than these animals. Cross the street, stay out of their "personal space", whatever. Like I said, it ain't that hard...

You really felt like the guy crossing the lawn and chased on foot by the elk was his fault? (seemed like he did a good job in handling it, probably not the first time he'd been chased)

I honestly didn't take it that way at all, though in fairness the beginning of the encounter is not on film. For all i know the guy might have tried to pet the damn thing.

As they told us in the Army over and over at the beginning of every field problem:

"Stay away from the wildlife."

That solves 99% of all problems before they ever happen i bet.

+100 on that what a monster!

When Living in Jackson, WY in the early 90's 3 Blocks from the center of town.

I had a Bull moose that would not let me use my back door to enter or exit the house, lasted a week or so. He was very serious about it not letting any one pass.

These guy's would not let us pass on snowmobiles couple years ago.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237746411.jpg

I also thought the guy did a job of evading, using trees to block, using the car, etc.

One thing is that the animal can feel you are intruding and provoking, even if you do not feel that way.

Adolescent male Grizz have a real bad ass attitude. In one attack, the bear was on one ridgeline and hikers were on another. The bear ran all the way down slope, across the effing valley, and then UP slope to the hikers, where he mauled them. I forget the total distance - but it was 2-4 miles. Think that incident is in Steve Herrero's book.

Also note that the one elk "won" every damn encounter - he gored and butted some cars and drove them off. He drove off other cars just by facing them down. That elk is certain that he is one bad mother and that cars are not dangerous.

My favorite scene in the vids above tho is the old guy in the black truck - he doesn't even bother to glance at the elk, but he turns and stares ate something unusual -- the guys with the video camera.

For a fun watch see if you can find some vids on musk oxen - great defensive formations, tho not up to Alexander's phalanx.

Well i'm sure it was your fault both times. ;)

Jeez, that's pretty terrifying if the details are accurate.

Rest assured you will never see me in Grizzly country without a .44 Magnum or larger.

I'll browse around you tube for any vids on the elk formations today. Thanks for the heads up. I love these animal videos. I can (and sometimes do) watch them for hours at a time.

I posted some good videos in the mountain lion thread too. A few are highly disturbing, but a few of them are just plain awesome too. The one where the Tiger closes 50 meters and leaps 10 feet in the air to attack a man on an elephant before the guy sitting right next to him can even get a single shot off is out of this world.