Race and Education

[Vipergrün]

Simple. Education starts at home.

Here's something that always bugs me. Since when did bi-lingual = speaks spanish?

[cantdrv55]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Stats show that despite the high educational level of Asians, their representation in upper management and corporate board rooms isn't reflected by their population. Why is that? Answer: glass ceiling. It applies to women as well. Same with salaries. There are many who will press for the status quo to preserve their positions in the corporate structure or society.

Sherwood

Glass ceiling is a partial explanation. Most of it is cultural, IMO. We're just not wired for self-promotion which is what you need to get noticed. I could be wrong but I've noticed that trait in me and in every other Asian I know in sales at our company. We turn in great numbers, almost always in the top 20%, some in the top 10% but none are in upper management. Why? We put our nose on the grindstone and plug away. We just don't take the time to look up and toot our horn. To us, it's boastful to do so. Frankly, it makes me cringe when I hear/see my colleagues do it.

[Jim Richards]

I see this trait in my wife and in many, but not all, of our friends and coworkers. Families can have a great influence on whether or not this trait persists in subsequent generations.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by cantdrv55

Glass ceiling is a partial explanation. Most of it is cultural, IMO. We're just not wired for self-promotion which is what you need to get noticed. I could be wrong but I've noticed that trait in me and in every other Asian I know in sales at our company. We turn in great numbers, almost always in the top 20%, some in the top 10% but none are in upper management. Why? We put our nose on the grindstone and plug away. We just don't take the time to look up and toot our horn. To us, it's boastful to do so. Frankly, it makes me cringe when I hear/see my colleagues do it.

Yup. As an engineer I have many co-workers that are Asian, that describes them to a T. Work hard, get the work done, don't draw unnecessary attention to themselves. Unfortunately promotions tend to be based on perception, not reality. It's all about making yourself look good to the right audience, politics get promotions, not ability.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by Head416

A friend of mine teaches junior high and deals with this ridiculous mentality constantly. He tries to water down the material to their level, and they still fail. Then the parents blame him for making it too hard. Then the administration tells him more kids need to be getting passing grades.

He tries to teach, they don't listen, they don't care. He gives them a copy of the test as a 'study guide', gives them all the answers, then has them take the exact same test. Most fail. Some are so unmotivated they get scores in the teens on open book tests!

They're insubordinate, but niether the administration nor the parents back him up. We need to just kick these kids out of school and stop wasting money on them.

I spoke with an educator about this subject, and he indicated that early efforts paid the largest dividends (head start), and that identifying "at risk" children and enrolling them in such a program would get the best results for $ invested. I suggested a program for the children's parents be mandatory to qualify for that program, and he indicated that could work very well.

I wonder about a multi-tiered education system, maybe 3 systems. As children fail academically, they be transferred to a more regimented system, top tier a standard academic setting, second tier: uniforms, stricter discipline, less academic and extra-curricular options, third tier: last step from the penal system.

The educator I spoke with said that if parents were willing to put in the effort to help their kids, all the kids could be educated, except the drug users

[audiman08]

Originally Posted by Head416

I think it comes down to family. You can't get a kid to listen in class if they don't listen at home. You can't get a kid to care about education if their parents tell them education is stupid.

Inner cities tend to have more blacks and hispanics, and thoes environments tend to foster these attitudes. It's socioeconomic, not racial.

I was talking to an ex-inner city teacher last weekend (he's in the Navy now). Basically, he said he couldn't handle being blamed for the poor performance of his students when he knew the parents weren't pushing them to do homework, study, show up to school, etc. I don't think this is a racial thing, just a problem with parents who have never found value in education.

[Rikao4]

by making it a racial thing, they
get more $..
and the parents get off the hook..
besides when your Dad has 3 drug misd..
as his son ..you aspire to obtain that 'felony'
and if Mom pooped you at 14..
you will most likely be preggers at 13..

Rika

[Evans, Marv]

Don't know how it is now, but years ago some European countries had standard tests administered to students through the educational levels. Those showing academic inclination were continued on into academic curriculum. Those who weren't inclined toward academic pursuit were guided into a more vocational line of education. I've always wondered why every student here had to go on to a university, when in truth many who chose the vocational route end up making more money.

[Jim Richards]

Aren't most/many of our vocations being filled by illegal labor? If so, then the vocational route would be a sure route to public assistance.

[Rikao4]

the vocational route is no picnic..
they still do class..
sort 50/50 for a bit..
class in AM.. Porsche factory afternoon..
if your good..you have a gig..

Rika

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

As long as there are signs of discrimination, institutional or otherwise, there must be mechanisms to counter that effect. Notice I said nothing about race or sex. Whatever applies. But in some distant future, current majorities might be in the minority and may feel the pendulum of discrimination swing against them. And in that case, mechanisms like AA should be in place to help right that wrong.

Stats show that despite the high educational level of Asians, their representation in upper management and corporate board rooms isn't reflected by their population. Why is that? Answer: glass ceiling. It applies to women as well. Same with salaries. There are many who will press for the status quo to preserve their positions in the corporate structure or society.

Sherwood

horse poo. My current employer is one of the largest in the world. Management is men and women of all races. My immediate supervisor is a woman, her supervisore is a woman, my peer is a woman.

As for teaching, both of my kids are teachers and both of them got fed up with lazy students and uninvolved parents. They both teach in the 'burbs now.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

I spoke with an educator about this subject, and he indicated that early efforts paid the largest dividends (head start), and that identifying "at risk" children and enrolling them in such a program would get the best results for $ invested. I suggested a program for the children's parents be mandatory to qualify for that program, and he indicated that could work very well.

I wonder about a multi-tiered education system, maybe 3 systems. As children fail academically, they be transferred to a more regimented system, top tier a standard academic setting, second tier: uniforms, stricter discipline, less academic and extra-curricular options, third tier: last step from the penal system.

The educator I spoke with said that if parents were willing to put in the effort to help their kids, all the kids could be educated, except the drug users

My wife's aunt and uncle are both teachers, even in a small KS town they have many of the same experiences. Our local Catholic schools have no trouble recruiting teachers, despite slightly lower pay. Teachers are happy to work in an environment where they still have authority and parents who are engaged in the education of their kids.

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Don't know how it is now, but years ago some European countries had standard tests administered to students through the educational levels. Those showing academic inclination were continued on into academic curriculum. Those who weren't inclined toward academic pursuit were guided into a more vocational line of education. I've always wondered why every student here had to go on to a university, when in truth many who chose the vocational route end up making more money.

Isn't that Germany? I totally agree with this approach, the concept of shoving college down every high-school student's throat is incredibly stupid. Not only is college not for everyone, but many college grads don't end up with spectacular high paying jobs. My soon to be brother-in-law is a CDL truck driver, he makes very nearly the same salary that I do as an engineering manager. He also gets 1.5x OT, only works 4 days per week, and doesn't have any student loans. I have multiple friends stuck in dead-end $30k jobs because they only graduated with a Business Management degree.

[audiman08]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Those showing academic inclination were continued on into academic curriculum. Those who weren't inclined toward academic pursuit were guided into a more vocational line of education. I've always wondered why every student here had to go on to a university, when in truth many who chose the vocational route end up making more money.

I sort-of agree with this. The problem is, many students don't believe in their own abilities and this may give an excuse for some not to excel in academics...only later to wish they had tried harder. By then, without college preparatory classes it becomes a pain trying to get into a university.

[Head416]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

You can however, dump a boatload of tax payer money into trying to force horses to drink.

I don't want to say "cut 'em loose" but is there really any other choice? Those who choose not to learn are wasting money and taking resources away from those who are trying to learn. Everybody loses.

Is education a constitutional right?

[Seahawk]

Here is what I know:

If I hadn't the good fortune to be the son of my parents I would have been more than happy to F up my life in glorious splendor. There is no Head Start Program, no government sponsored program that could have reigned in my idiotcracy. None.

My interests centered on sports and the womins (sic), with some pot for spice...given no boundaries, I would have splashed in a fetid pool of failure at, say, 19.

But Bob and Arden had different plans. Parents.

They demanded, I fought. They demanded more, the velvet hammer.

Parent(s), engaged, is the only answer. Simple.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

horse poo. My current employer is one of the largest in the world. Management is men and women of all races. My immediate supervisor is a woman, her supervisore is a woman, my peer is a woman.

As for teaching, both of my kids are teachers and both of them got fed up with lazy students and uninvolved parents. They both teach in the 'burbs now.

Your response is one of those YMMV examples. Your attempt to extrapolate a valid answer from your own anecdotal experiences is only accurate..... for you.

Nothing against your parents, but there are teachers dedicated to teaching students regardless of their family background or lack of apparent motivation. That would appear to be the ultimate challenge for a teacher, but I understand their point of view. I used to be one too (a teacher that is) and the apathy from some students and parents can cause one to ask, "Why should I care if they don't?".

See the film, "Stand and Deliver", about one of those dedicated teachers working in an inner city neighborhood.

Interview w/Escalante:
YouTube - Jaime Escalante On Being A Teacher

Current news:


Sherwood

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Parent(s), engaged, is the only answer. Simple.

Yep.

[Rikao4]

S, what caused you to abandon those poor little piggies..?
$..or did you realize it's a waste of time...?

Rika

[Rich76_911s]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Parent(s), engaged, is the only answer. Simple.

Under this assumption if you sent two identical twins to two different schools one bad and one great, the results would be closely matched.

I just don't think it is that simple. If it was simply all about parenting why do so many people, already in great schoold districts, spend thousands of dollars annually to send their kids to private (arguably better) schools? Under the engaged parents argument this is either a waste of money, or an attempt to make up for bad parenting.

In no way, shape, or form am I saying that a lack of parenting is not playing a significant role in this. I'm just saying that the best parents in the world sending thier kid to a bad school is at a significant disadvantage to a mediocer parent sending thier kid to a good school. Which is a problem we need to work on.

Who needs to work on it, and who needs to start others to start working on it. Should that burden be taken by the parents? Or is it too large of a problem for parents to simply demand more. What do they bring to the bargaining table. Either shape up or we ship out? Sometimes it isn't that easy.

[Jim Richards]

My anecdote: Our kid went to public schools. We were involved parents. We checked his homework, and made sure he understood the material. He did great, and he earned a full-ride scholarship to a top university. He went on to med school, and is now making mega-bucks as a doctor. Now, to be fair, our son didn't go to poor inner city schools, but the schools he attended in the southeastern US weren't all that impressive.