Bent over at the dealership

[JMPRO]

Its a good thing I saved that $300. Yesterday I drove by the porsche shop that use to do work on my car. The owner was out front and saw me and waved. Tomarrow I will get a bill in the mail for
1 hand extended and moved
1 hand retracted
Total $300.00

[Superman]

I have never had a happy experience at a dealership. Every several years when I forget that and do business with a dealership, I am reminded why I don't go there anymore.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by JMPRO

Strange things happen. I put in a call to the Honda zone manager complaining about the price and basicialy reading him the riot act about good customer relations. Not a few minuets later I get a call from the dealer telling me they have revised the estimate to a little over $300. Gee, maybe they found out about that magic work around method of replacing the starter, or by magic the parts were suddenly discounted by 400%, or the service manager is reading the pelican parts web site in his spare time.
Jerry

Good for you.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Rusty Heap

...

Value is sooooooooooo subjective.....some 911 owners won't pay for the hydraulic shocks that hold open their hood, when a broom handle prop-rod will do. ...

gold!

thanks Dave!

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Superman

I have never had a happy experience at a dealership. Every several years when I forget that and do business with a dealership, I am reminded why I don't go there anymore.

+ eleventy billion.

[KaptKaos]

Another reason to hate new cars. They're designed to generate service revenue for the dealers. Most new cars come with a big plastic cover over the engine. They may as well label it "DO NOT TOUCH".

Just tonight at my autoshop class, a guy was trying to R&R a water pump on a camry v-6. The pump sits on the drivers side of the the engine. There is a cover that manages to cover the top 1/8" of the pump that can only be removed by removing a ton of other stuff. Without removing it, you can't get the pump out. Why?? There is no reason why this had to be like this, unless it was done on purpose.

Here's the reality: Car manufacturers don't want you to do your own maintenance and they don't want you keeping a car more than 3-4 years. They sure as hell don't want their products lasting 20 years, and they're building in obsolescence to make sure of it.

[javadog]

Having been a Honda dealer, I can say that most of you guys are smoking crack. Granted, not all dealers are the same, but they are not all bad either. Working on cars 8 hours a day isn't easy work and the guys turning the wrenches aren't getting rich. The dealers that I know aren't making a killing either, what with everybody thinking they can show up at a dealership and buy a car for less than what the dealer pays for it.

And, if you think that manufacturers deliberately design cars to be hard to work on, and to fall apart 5 minutes after the warranty expires, my advice is that you should go put your tin foil hat on and sit in the corner.

Everybody has a choice. If you want to save money, buy a made-in-China-to-a-price starter from the nearest parts store and change it yourself. It's easy, anybody could do it in no time at all. No tools are required. Heck, do it in the parts store parking lot, they won't mind.

JR

[Porsche-O-Phile]

A few thoughts reading this:

1. This is EXACTLY why I do 100% of my own maintenance on ALL our vehicles
2. Dealerships absolutely want (and need) suckers to bring their cars to them and pay the extreme mark-ups. There simply isn't enough profit in just selling cars anymore to cover a lot of their operating costs.
3. A good way to accomplish #2 is to mystify the process of auto repair. Even modern cars with all the electronic garbage on them are CARS. At their core, they are mechanical internal-combustion engines and anyone with good background knowledge in them, accompanied with some time, patience and proficiency with Google keyword searches can STILL do their own work.
4. "Planned obsolescence" is kept in check by the free market. Yes, manufacturers would love to design cars that blow up every five years, but competition prevents it - gotta' love that free market. If Manufacturer A does this, Manufacturer B will out-compete them on the basis of reliability and customers will migrate to them.
5. A lot of these costs are to cover the cost of guys making $60,000 a year to turn bolts. Unnecessary. Yes, there need to be some trained/skilled technicians, but when everyone down to the tire mounting guy and the oil change guy is making $25 an hour plus bennies, you have to wonder...
6. One more reason to love older cars. Simple to work on, cheap, reliable, can buy them outright with cash (no payments). Any aggrivation and/or money spent on repairs/upgrades is FAR less than a loan/lease payment on a "new" plastic piece of crap. And you can get the cheaper "liability only" insurance. BIG cost-savings potential.
7. People buy and lease new cars because of EGO, not because of any rational reason. Manufacturers and dealerships prey on this. Beware.
8. We have WAY too many overpaid workers in this country in the interest of using their spending habits to artificially prop up too much of our economy. We only need so many "handymen", residential subcontractors, laborers and wrench-twiddlers. We're WAY over capacity in all these "professions" and the correction is going to be harsh.

[Taz's Master]

javadog, I understand what you are saying, but don't expect me to believe that JMPRO's dealer reached into his own pocket for that $300.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

javadog, I understand what you are saying, but don't expect me to believe that JMPRO's dealer reached into his own pocket for that $300.

That's exactly what happened. I can guarantee you that Honda didn't pay anything. That's not how the Honda/dealer agreement works.

JR

[regency]

a long time ago I started using Lehr Auto Electric to rebuild my starters. It takes them no more than 2 days, most times just one day. My Tacoma starter cost about $175. to rebuild. They did my friends TR6 for a bit more because of some special parts needed. They did my 73 911 & my 74 Alfa GTV starters.

in Sacramento, Lehr Auto Electric 916-646-6626

[kaisen]

Dealer service has its place in the scheme of things. So do independents. So does DIY.

Dealers are specialists. They have specialized/factory training, much more so than any independent could afford. They have specialized/factory tools, often unavailable to anyone else, even if they could afford them.

Some of these skills and tools are necessary to properly diagnose or repair the issue.

If they are not necessary, go to an independent, or do it yourself.

It's really no different than the medical field. You don't see a neurovascular surgeon in the ER when you have a headache. But when you really need one, you're glad they have had the training, glad they have the facility, and glad they have the equipment. And you'd expect to pay (except many people never see the actual bill).

The average franchised dealer spends a little over $100,000 a year on specialized tools and training. The average franchised dealer spent about $800,000 equipping their shop, NOT including the $10-15K technician's personal toolboxes. If your independent shop made this kind of investment, you'd pay them more too. There's a reason.

[KaptKaos]

Originally Posted by javadog

And, if you think that manufacturers deliberately design cars to be hard to work on, and to fall apart 5 minutes after the warranty expires, my advice is that you should go put your tin foil hat on and sit in the corner.

Remind me of this comment when those in-dash screens that a lot of manufacturers are using to control everything start to fail, and their replacement costs (8 years+ down the road) total the car.

[Scott Watkins]

"Having been a Honda dealer, I can say that most of you guys are smoking crack. Granted, not all dealers are the same, but they are not all bad either. Working on cars 8 hours a day isn't easy work and the guys turning the wrenches aren't getting rich. The dealers that I know aren't making a killing either, what with everybody thinking they can show up at a dealership and buy a car for less than what the dealer pays for it.

And, if you think that manufacturers deliberately design cars to be hard to work on, and to fall apart 5 minutes after the warranty expires, my advice is that you should go put your tin foil hat on and sit in the corner.

Everybody has a choice. If you want to save money, buy a made-in-China-to-a-price starter from the nearest parts store and change it yourself. It's easy, anybody could do it in no time at all. No tools are required. Heck, do it in the parts store parking lot, they won't mind."

JR, nice response.

I have great relationships with all dealers I use locally, DD or Porsche. Key word is "relationships".

Jerry, instead of calling the Honda zone manager, why didn’t you sit down and discuss with your dealer and have them explain the charge and why you felt it was not a fair price for the work?

My daughter had a Honda for 7 or so years from new, and these folks were some of the best I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with.

Just my $.02 worth...

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by javadog

And, if you think that manufacturers deliberately design cars to be hard to work on, and to fall apart 5 minutes after the warranty expires, my advice is that you should go put your tin foil hat on and sit in the corner.

Tell that to the owners of pre-2006 Minis. Exploding transmissions galore, and $5k to replace them (repairs are not possible, apparently).

[Rusty Heap]

I think that Bar Bouncers and Doorman are very underpaid for the stuff they have to deal with! They deserve Hazard pay!!

What is a lap dance worth really, $40 or $400?
A wedding dress? $400 or 4000? Ruining a pair of stiletto shoes? Priceless.........

Breaking NEWS:

Sharon Hancox, 40, spent her first night of marriage in police cells after the row at the champagne reception for her lesbian wedding to her new wife.

A court heard Hancox had drunk up to eight pints of lager and champagne at the party after their gay civil ceremony. The court also heard she had a row with club doorman David Jenkins over allowing an unwelcome guest into the wedding function.

Prosecutor Julie Sullivan said: "With that, she then pulled the top of her red dress down exposing her breasts.

"Hancox then called him a pervert. Her partner then lunged at Mr Jenkins before Hancox, who was holding a two-inch stiletto shoe, followed suit.

"The heel made contact with his forehead and he felt blood running down his face."

The court heard trouble started after doorman Mr Jenkins was told that Nicola Hutin, also 40, was fighting with another woman.

Mr Jenkins separated the pair - then decided to ask all the guests to leave the Champers bar in Swansea, South Wales.

But the city's magistrates heard Hancox blamed Mr Jenkins for the fight - and told him he should not have let the other woman into the private function.

Miss Sullivan said: "She told police she was ashamed of what she had done and was embarrassed for her actions."

Doorman Mr Jenkins said he'd had "previous dealings" with Hancox and she had been ejected from Champers at an earlier time.

Hancox allegedly told him: "You assaulted me, you pulled my tits out two years ago." But Mr Jenkins denied her claims.

Steve Burnell, defending, said Hancox believed she was only trying to protect her partner.

He said: "One of the guests turned up slightly inebriated. They asked that the woman not be allowed in.

"She had already taken her shoes off. It wasn't a deliberate act where she was wearing high heels and had taken them off.

"She had not fully appreciated that the shoe was in her hand when she swung at him. She's very remorseful."

Hancox was released the next day to spend their honeymoon in Devon.

Hancox, of Penlan, Swansea, admitted common assault and was sentenced to a 12-month community order with 60 hours' unpaid work.

She was also ordered to pay £100 compensation and £150 costs.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Tell that to the owners of pre-2006 Minis. Exploding transmissions galore, and $5k to replace them (repairs are not possible, apparently).

So then, you think BMW deliberately designed a crap transmission, so that they could replace a bunch of them under warranty and suffer the hit to their brand image from pissed-off customers that had problems not covered under warranty. Yeah, makes sense to me. Pissed-off customers always buy another car from companies they hate, because of their unwavering loyalty to the brand, and I'm sure they recommend that same course of action to all of their friends and aquaintences.

I'm sure Toyota also engineered their recent problems to create publicity for the company, because we all know that any publicity is good publicity, right?

Some of you guys really ought to figure out how life really works. Or, find a way to make a better tin-foil hat.
Me, I need to figure out why I waste time on this forum.

JR

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by javadog

So then, you think BMW deliberately designed a crap transmission, so that they could replace a bunch of them under warranty and suffer the hit to their brand image from pissed-off customers that had problems not covered under warranty. Yeah, makes sense to me. Pissed-off customers always buy another car from companies they hate, because of their unwavering loyalty to the brand, and I'm sure they recommend that same course of action to all of their friends and aquaintences.

Most of the replacements are happening AFTER the warranty runs out. It takes 3-4 years or 50k+ miles for the 1/2 gears to blow.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Most of the replacements are happening AFTER the warranty runs out. It takes 3-4 years or 50k+ miles for the 1/2 gears to blow.

Yeah, so your point is that you think BMW engineered it this way on purpose?

Face it, you name a car brand and I'll give you an instance of something they did wrong. Nothing is perfect, even if the manufacturer spends hundreds of millions of dollars to try to make it so. That's life.

JR

[SpeedracerIndy]

That initial estimate doesn't surprise me too much considering the amount of work required. I replaced a starter on a Passport several years ago for a friend. I jacked up the car and started taking it apart thinking it would be an easy job. Low and behold the starter won't fit through. I ended up taking the starter apart, feeding it through the hole in pieces and putting it back together up in the engine. What a pain, but it worked and didn't have any problems for the rest of the life of the vehicle.

My significant other has a Passport too. The last year they were made, and it has been totally trouble free for 98,000 miles (knock on wood).

The Honda dealer I went to for parts for that car told me they called them "Trashports" in the service department because they started falling apart around 60k. Luckily ours seems to be a well put together one. I think it's the first generation ones that gave them a bad name. The later models seem to be pretty well put together.

An interesting fact about the Passport (to me anyway), they were made at the Subaru plant in Indiana!