Paid Firemen - do we need them

[McLovin]

Don't know about full volunteer, but it seems, based on market conditions (i.e., supply v. demand) that they are overpaid/overcompensated/overbenefitted.

When you have 10 people lining up for each spot, that would indicate supply of employees is way outstripping demand, and you therefore could lower pay/benefits and still fill the spots with qualified people.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Moses

The local Firefighters/Paramedics make me nuts. Despite irrefutable data that shows rapid initiation of transport is safest, they continue screwing around in the field taking a medical history, doing a physical evaluation and initiating treatment. All of this crap should be done in the truck en route to the hospital.

What are the odds this is driven by liability issues rather than ego/quality of care?

The "golden hour" pretty much necessitates scoop and run, no?

[strupgolf]

Funny story. While I was getting gas in our town, a semi made a right turn and hit a 50 year old light pole, not working, but still there. I told the girl next to me, "watch this". Now there was no damage to the truck, street, cars, etc. Withing a few minutes there were 2 city police cars, 3 country police cars, 2 ambulances, 2 fire trucks and who know's who else. The fire station was a 1/2 block down the street and they could have looked out the door to see nothing happened. My point being at budget time, the fire chief will get up and say "our department responded to 595 incidents last year so we need more money etc, etc, etc.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by deanp

Volunteer fire department personnel hold regular jobs, the response time to a call is dictated by how soon they can get to the station, and then respond. If my house is on fire, or I have a medical emergency or car accident I'd prefer to know professionals are on duty and ready to respond.

The town I grew up in had a paid department with 2 and then 3 people per shift, 2days, 2nights, 4 days off. Shifts were 8AM to 6PM and obviously 6PM to 8AM. They also had a call department that consisted of two groups - which got paid a nominal amount of money based on the percentage of calls they showed up for. The groups would alternate - one week of on call, then one week off call.

The normal department members also were responsible for the ambulance - First Reponders, EMTs, the works. If a car accident was bad enough, they would also tone the group.

I think a better trend would be to work towards eliminating pensions for all new municipal hires and eliminate that cost, but that is unlikely to happen.

Most of the towns around here do something like this. It seems to work well and they have good response times...


Now the airforce firefighters.... Some of those guys don't do schit! My uncle works at a place that the airforce uses for T&G practice etc... Its in a low air traffic zone and a very long run way. They get paid 16hr days and roll on a few calls a year. Those are usually bird strikes or smoke in cabin. They've not had a crash or real fire in 20+ years...

[strupgolf]

I hate it on the radio or TV shows when a fireman is on, because the host will always say, "This is John Smith a fireman, and he's working 2 jobs to support his family". I'm sorry, he's working 2 jobs because he has the TIME to work 2 jobs. A full time fireman in Indy makes over $65,000 per year. 20 years in and car retire. Where can you get time kind of bene's in the private sector.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by nostatic

What are the odds this is driven by liability issues rather than ego/quality of care?

A LOT of it. No question. They follow protocols which are not evidence based. Once it is apparent that transport is required, they should not take the time to take a medical history or do any diagnostic work, yet they still do. It's in the department protocol.

For example; If you are a gunshot or stabbing victim, you may be twice as likely to die if the EMS takes the time to immobilize your spine prior to transport, yet gunshot victims still arrive if full immobilization. It's hard to fathom.

For Gunshot and Stab Victims, On-Scene Spine Immobilization May Do More Harm Than Good - 01/11/2010

[wreckersteve]

Moses, I live 5 imuntes from a good sized hospital. The EMS base is half way there. If something happens to my son, it will be load and go by myself. If it is me, I hope I can just drive.

We have alot of VFD around here. Only the City of Pittsburgh and a few very well of burbs have paid. The bigger twps will have a paid chief to check codes and deal with the day to day business of the dept. I see very little use for paid guys in this areas. What really kills me is these twps that are not much more that a square mile have a police force. It is comeing more popular to have regional depts.

[widgeon13]

Interesting discussion.

I'm an volunteer EMT/Fire (BLS) in a rural community. It takes an hour under the best conditions to get to a hospital and longer to get to a trauma center. Based on conditions and signs and symptoms, we need to transport as quickly as possible under almost any conditions. If it is clearly life threatening we will call for life flight. There are four volunteer EMT's and we have ALS that we can request en route. We have a very good record on getting patients to the hospital alive.

I have never heard of protocols that would delay transport, sounds like these folks are operating outside the system. I wouldn't belong to an organization that behaved in that manner. It jeopardizes the welfare of every patient and at best is unethical.

I hope I never witness behavior that delays the best treatment for any patient from either paid or volunteer EMS personnel.

[Tim Hancock]

I live with in 20 miles of several small towns in NW Ohio farm country. Every township still has a volunteer fire department and it works fine as many of the volunteers work locally or are farmers. When the alarm sounds, response time is still amazingly quick and typically several departments show up. Around here folks still help/care about their neighbors. Last fire I witnessed (one mile over across the field) was a barn fire caused by lightning. I got there within 5-7 minutes of the fire starting, the first volunteer fire department was there about five minutes later. Before the night was over, there were trucks and tankers from at least 4 departments and about 50 other people who were concerned about the family that owned the place. The wood barn was a total loss, but the fire department saved the nearby buildings and house from going up in flames. I was in awe of how hot and fast that barn burned but I was also in awe of how many firefighters and concerned community members showed up on a weekend night out in the middle of nowhere.

I highly doubt volunteer fire departments would be nearly as effective in more urban areas. If I lived in an urban area, I would sleep better at night knowing guys like Vinman are on duty.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I would gladly volunteer for a local volunteer FD. Access to resources and equipment, training, etc. And the satisfaction of giving back to the community.

Actually here's a better idea - if you do volunteer as a firefighter (we could do the same thing for cops or other various "civic" type jobs - you get a $10k tax write off.

Voila! You just cut the cost of salaries by 90% and you'll have people beating the doors down to do it.

Sounds good. What taxing entity would give you the 10K? Local? State? Feds?

[KarlCarrera]

Paid.

I have absolutely no problems with the volunteers, they do an excellent job! And.. work very hard, are very competent, and professional.

Unfortunately, speaking only from my narrow minded viewpoint.
I had to resort to calling 911 for a potential house fire (mine).
With-in minutes (and they do count) I had two trucks and 6 firefighters, from the city.

Not that the volunteers wouldn't or couldn't have performed the same task, the response time would have been different.

For me time was the issue. I was damn glad the guys response time was to my benefit.

They choose to be Fire Fighters, and accept the risks and benefits as we all do. As in every occupation.

In this instance, my tax dollars actually paid me back. No questions, no bill, no deductible, and no loss of life.

Just .02...

Karl
88 Targa

[jyl]

In some smaller cities, almost all of the municipal budget is consumed by having their own fire and police departments. When those cities go bankrupt, they contract with neighboring cities or the county for fire and police services. I haven't seen any evidence on whether that results in better or same or worse service. My suspicion is that it is at least the same.

Here's a slightly wacky idea. Suppose every fire station in a 100 mile by 100 mile area has a full set of equipment and vehicles but is otherwise unmanned, with a helipad on the roof. There is a central command location with firefighters on duty 24x7 and two helicopters on standby, with a light plane in the air. When a fire is reported, the plane (w/ thermal imaging equipment) or the local police respond and verifies that there is a fire. Meanwhile a helicopter is ferry-ing firefighters to the nearest fire station, if the fire is verified they they take the vehicles and respond. There are also volunteer firemen throughout the area. If there are many fires, or a really huge fire, the volunteers are mobilized and respond to back up the initial response. Perhaps this way you could reduce the number of full time fire fighters by 90%, offset by the cost of several pilots (aren't pilots cheap to hire nowadays?) and aircraft. Of course, weather would be a problem . . . maybe when aircraft can't fly, some of the volunteers are mobilized to man some of the local stations.

[Radioactive]

Dave I think our town should cross train the police to be fireman or the other way around, There doesn't seem to be that many fires or big crime and if there is a car accident the police have to show up anyways. Instead of the fireman sitting around waiting for a fire they can patrol the streets. Or since they Police are patrolling the streets they can put out the fires and give medical aid. If you have a Policeman/Fireman/EMT already in a moving vehicle wouldn't the response time be very good. Isn't Our Police Chief the Fire Chief. If he can do it why can't everybody
else.

Oh and what happened to that pre-pay EMT thing they were trying to push on us something about paying a fee so you won't be charged when they show up to help you. Isn't that what are property taxes are for.

[makaio]

John unique idea. One of the downfalls is most helicopters with enough room and internal cargo carrying capability start at about $1000 an hour to operate, not including pilot cost.

For the record I am a paid fireman. I do believe that volunteer firefighters are an asset to the fire service. Unfortunatley in California the volunteer firefighter is going the way of the dodo bird in most areas. The main reason is you can't just volunteer and show up to fires and other emergencies and recieve on the job training anymore due to the laws and injuries that have occured in the past.

In my area we still utilize volunteers along with our paid staff. The majority of the volunteers are well trained, but do not operate at the same level as the paid staff due to less real life emergency experience and the fact that most of them are happy to be utilized in support roles.

I know I have a very good job and I'm thankfull everyday I go to work and come home safely. As the station Captain of my house, I preach to all of my crew we have a good job and do my best to ensure that we provide all of the tax payers with the best level of service we can.

[KarlCarrera]

Originally Posted by jyl

In some smaller cities, almost all of the municipal budget is consumed by having their own fire and police departments. When those cities go bankrupt, they contract with neighboring cities or the county for fire and police services. I haven't seen any evidence on whether that results in better or same or worse service. My suspicion is that it is at least the same.

Here's a slightly wacky idea. Suppose every fire station in a 100 mile by 100 mile area has a full set of equipment and vehicles but is otherwise unmanned, with a helipad on the roof. There is a central command location with firefighters on duty 24x7 and two helicopters on standby, with a light plane in the air. When a fire is reported, the plane (w/ thermal imaging equipment) or the local police respond and verifies that there is a fire. Meanwhile a helicopter is ferry-ing firefighters to the nearest fire station, if the fire is verified they they take the vehicles and respond. There are also volunteer firemen throughout the area. If there are many fires, or a really huge fire, the volunteers are mobilized and respond to back up the initial response. Perhaps this way you could reduce the number of full time fire fighters by 90%, offset by the cost of several pilots (aren't pilots cheap to hire nowadays?) and aircraft. Of course, weather would be a problem . . . maybe when aircraft can't fly, some of the volunteers are mobilized to man some of the local stations.

100 mile x 100 mile? 10,000 sq. miles? One set of equipment? What is the equipment? 80' ladder, 3500 gal pumper, ambulance, 4x4's and Emt's? And a Helipad? With 2 helicopters, and pilots and staff and fuel? Central location, in 10,000 sq miles? 24x7 firefighters? Light plane in the air, with a pilot and fuel? How about A&P's to keep everything in the air?

This has to be in green....

Pilot's may be plentiful today, but their not cheap or stu......

What in the world would the response time be?.......:>)

Karl
88 Targa

[jyl]

If a full time firefighter costs $80K/yr including benefits (I think that is way low when you include pension, disability, overtime), then each such is equivalent to 80 hours operation of the helicopter. Depends on how many paid firefighters you eliminate and how much the aircraft are used. I suppose you also need to make sure that the airmobile fire fighters are only responding to fires, not to medical situations. Can't scramble the helicopter squad just because granny's chest hurts . . .

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by strupgolf

I hate it on the radio or TV shows when a fireman is on, because the host will always say, "This is John Smith a fireman, and he's working 2 jobs to support his family". I'm sorry, he's working 2 jobs because he has the TIME to work 2 jobs. A full time fireman in Indy makes over $65,000 per year. 20 years in and car retire. Where can you get time kind of bene's in the private sector.

There is a pretty big risk that a fireman will die too, not much risk like that in the private sector for that money... Sorry, hard to not be willing to pay someone who is willing to risk his or her life to protect me & my property...

[jyl]

No, all the local stations are there, each with all the equipment that they have today, prepositioned close to the fire. Only the firefighters get ferried. How many firefighters respond to a typical house fire? 20?

10,000 sq miles is a lot but no point is more than 70 miles from the center and most of the area is 40 miles. How long does it take for a helicopter to cover 40 miles?

Pilots do appear to be a lot less expensive than firefighters. Helicopter pilots, I dunno.

I don't know if this would work as well as the existing system. But the cost-benefit might work out better.

For example, the city of Los Angeles FD has 3,600 uniformed personnel, 107 fire stations, 7 helicopters (manned 24x7). The stations are manned by 1100 firefighters at all times. The average LAFD firefighter earns $117K/yr in salary plus overtime.

I can't quickly find out how many fires the LAFD actually responds to each year. The vast, overwhelming, majority of responses are medical, not fire.

So perhaps using the centralized airmobile system, you could have 1,000 uniformed personnel instead of 3,600? And still get the first engine to a fire quickly enough? Even if it is not quite as quickly as the current system?

This brings up another issue. Should the fire department be used to handle medical responses? Is that the efficient system, or is it a system that just sort of evolved because the fire department had the stations and the manpower? If you were designing a public safety system from scratch, would you do this?

Quote de jyl

In some smaller cities, almost all of the municipal budget is consumed by having their own fire and police departments. When those cities go bankrupt, they contract with neighboring cities or the county for fire and police services. I haven't seen any evidence on whether that results in better or same or worse service. My suspicion is that it is at least the same.



Here's a slightly wacky idea. Suppose every fire station in a 100 mile by 100 mile area has a full set of equipment and vehicles but is otherwise unmanned, with a helipad on the roof. There is a central command location with firefighters on duty 24x7 and two helicopters on standby, with a light plane in the air. When a fire is reported, the plane (w/ thermal imaging equipment) or the local police respond and verifies that there is a fire. Meanwhile a helicopter is ferry-ing firefighters to the nearest fire station, if the fire is verified they they take the vehicles and respond. There are also volunteer firemen throughout the area. If there are many fires, or a really huge fire, the volunteers are mobilized and respond to back up the initial response. Perhaps this way you could reduce the number of full time fire fighters by 90%, offset by the cost of several pilots (aren't pilots cheap to hire nowadays?) and aircraft. Of course, weather would be a problem . . . maybe when aircraft can't fly, some of the volunteers are mobilized to man some of the local stations.

100 mile x 100 mile? 10,000 sq. miles? One set of equipment? What is the equipment? 80' ladder, 3500 gal pumper, ambulance, 4x4's and Emt's? And a Helipad? With 2 helicopters, and pilots and staff and fuel? Central location, in 10,000 sq miles? 24x7 firefighters? Light plane in the air, with a pilot and fuel? How about A&P's to keep everything in the air?



This has to be in green....



Pilot's may be plentiful today, but their not cheap or stu......



What in the world would the response time be?.......:>)



Karl

88 Targa

[Gogar]

Ah.... forget it. Never mind.....

Cmon, Vinman. You're the most qualified guy here, and I want to know what you think.

[deanp]

In some smaller cities, almost all of the municipal budget is consumed by having their own fire and police departments. When those cities go bankrupt, they contract with neighboring cities or the county for fire and police services. I haven't seen any evidence on whether that results in better or same or worse service. My suspicion is that it is at least the same.

I'd have to look at our latest budget, but last I looked I think more than 50% of our town budget was school department related. Why not stretch your idea to schools? School buildings in all locations, supervisory staff to maintain behavior in the buildings at 40% the salary of a teacher, and 25% of the current number of teachers teaching classes from a centralized location broadcast over the web to video screens in the schools?

I'll say it again - if my house is on fire, or I am trapped in a crushed car and need the jaws of life to be extricated, I want someone on call ready to roll.

Re: volunteer status - you'd also need to look at the demographics of the community. This may work in small towns where people live where they work - but do they work in bedroom communities where the majority of candidates that would volunteer work 20, 30 or 60 minutes from where they would volunteer?