Paid Firemen - do we need them

[GWN7]

The reason why most areas have a payed fire response instead of a volunteer department is simple, it all has to do with costs. Your home and business insurance is determined by the insurance underwriters association. They determine what the level of fire resonce is for your area and charge you a premimun accordingly. They also set out what the minumim type of equipment is that your department has to use or the insurance preminums goes up. They look at population density, home types, water supply, mutial aid and a whole bunch of other factors when determining what you pay.

It has been determined that a initial attack responce of 5 min or less is needed from the detection of a fire to when the first hose lines are brought into play or a resulting total loss can occur.

So if you live in a city where most homes are 5-10' apart and you have a fire in one of the homes without a payed fire service you could loose the whole city block of homes. (think Great Fire of Chicago)

If you live in a semi rual area with a volunteer fire department and you have a fire in your home most of the time your house will be a total loss and the volunteer department will be there to prevent the expansion of the fire so your fire dosen't cause your neibours homes to burn down.

So either you pay via taxes for a professional fire department or you write a cheque to your insurance provider.

Now on to paramedics:

All paramedics opperate under a doctors licence. The medical director of a paramedic program sets out the guidelines of what medical procedures can be done and how they are to be done and all paramedics that opperate under his licence have to follow those rules. The medical director sets standards for paramedics based on their medical association recomendations.

So if the Dr. says X, Y & Z have to be done before a transport arrives at a hospital then they better be done or their licence will be suspended because those are the rules they have to follow.

Now understanding these facts, if a patients complaint, their history and the basic vitals determine that certain procedures need to be done such as a 12 leed EKG or a starting a IV or even the simple task of taking a blood preassure they can't be done while bouncing down the road with lights and sirens on and that's why a ambulance may sit outside a home for 5 or 10 minutes after a patient is loaded.

Captain WFD, 28 yrs EMR

[Tervuren]

The nearest town to me has a few paid fire fighters that man the trucks and get them where they need to go, then they call in volunteers in the area of the fire who drive straight there to make it a full crew.

For me, the budget area that irks me is "school debt" Why the heck can't a school save up some money for expansion, instead of keeping a huge debtload going and expanding again before the last one is paid off? Its a constant drain!

[Rikao4]

there is a time to scoop and boogey..
but you had better know what your running with..
in the old days the morgue guys did the response..
just scoop and go...nevermind those broken bones or that bleeding..
a balance is what you want..
and good Paras...EMT's know it..

and yes ,I used to sit around bored..
watching TV..reading,training..
hoping somebody screws up..
good day for me..
was a bad day for someone..

Rika

[jyl]

Originally Posted by deanp

I'd have to look at our latest budget, but last I looked I think more than 50% of our town budget was school department related. Why not stretch your idea to schools? School buildings in all locations, supervisory staff to maintain behavior in the buildings at 40% the salary of a teacher, and 25% of the current number of teachers teaching classes from a centralized location broadcast over the web to video screens in the schools?

I'll say it again - if my house is on fire, or I am trapped in a crushed car and need the jaws of life to be extricated, I want someone on call ready to roll.

Re: volunteer status - you'd also need to look at the demographics of the community. This may work in small towns where people live where they work - but do they work in bedroom communities where the majority of candidates that would volunteer work 20, 30 or 60 minutes from where they would volunteer?

I most familiar w/ California, where schools are largely funded by the state budget. Local/city budgets are dominated by public safety. From a Wall Street Journal piece on the Vallejo CA bankruptcy:

Vallejo is a Bay Area community of 121,000 that two years ago became the state's largest city to declare bankruptcy. Like other municipalities, its public-sector unions had driven its budget deep into the red. A report issued by the Cato Institute last September noted that 74% of the city's general budget was eaten up by police and firefighter salaries and overtime along with pension obligations. The average city in the state spends 60% of its budget on those things

Steven Greenhut: Vallejo's Painful Lessons in Municipal Bankruptcy - WSJ.com
(I admit this is only an op-ed piece so I don't consider the factual data as solid as in an actual WSJ story - would need to be checked)

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by DAEpperson

The bottom line is, how long can our society afford to pay the high FD salaries, and their bloated retirements. In CA, it is common practice to bank overtime or give it to the soon-to-be retired to artificially inflate their pensions. And by some accounts up to 80% go out on disability near the end of their careers (at around 50) so that half of their retirement income becomes non-taxable.

Didn't a voluntary FD work for a very long time? Why won't it work now.

Funny when I look at my paycheque and see the deduction for pension I didn't realise that someone else payed that ammount for me. I thought it came off my cheque, that I earned. As to banking overtime to boost a pension, most pensions are based on a 5 year average so unless they worked overtime for 5 years and whole bunch of it too, it wouldn't increase their pensions very much. Most penisons actually exclude OT in their calculations. I'd rather have the time off. As to 80% going on disability, well that's just laughable, especially at age 50. Ask anyone who has had to go on disability how that system works. Yes a voluntary FD works, but you get what you pay for.

[azasadny]

Let's see, do we need paid police, paid teachers, paid engineers, paid electricians, etc...? I believe that any valuable service, like fire protection and fire fighting requires professional skills and training and that requires a professional, one who is paid to render those services... Just my .02 and NOT intended as a slam to any volunteer fire fighters at all...

[VINMAN]

I wouldnt say I'm the most qualified but..

GWN pretty much said most of what I would have stated myself. There are way too many factors to determine stafing and equipment requirements.
One thing I dont not want to do is get in an argument over the capabilities and response of volunteer depts. So I will leave that area alone.
As far as Paramedics and ALS, i dont know enough about that to comment.
My dept is a suburban dept. Mid level housing density. Some farms. and horse farms. Light industy.Many strip malls, Large shopping mall. Has two major highways and a rail freight line running through it.
Another thing people need to realize is that the role of the modern fire dept has drastically changed. Nowadays, actual fires play a small part of most depts duties.
Besides your traditional structure fires, we handle MVAs, vehicle extrication, wildfires, confined space rescue, high angle rescue, water and ice rescue, animal rescue, storm response, dewatering assignments, etc, etc.... So for those that think most paid fire, depts just get paid to sit around and wait for something to burn think again.
Sure the amounts of fires in this country have been drastically reduced over the past few decades, mainly due to better constructon , and education, Fire depts do alot more than you think.


FF 20 yrs. 10 as line officer 4 as department Chief

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I would gladly volunteer for a local volunteer FD. Access to resources and equipment, training, etc. And the satisfaction of giving back to the community.

Actually here's a better idea - if you do volunteer as a firefighter (we could do the same thing for cops or other various "civic" type jobs - you get a $10k tax write off.

Voila! You just cut the cost of salaries by 90% and you'll have people beating the doors down to do it.

Lots of people volunteer because the idea of giving back to your community is a noble jesture, but unfortunatly quite a lot are not suited for the job. Someone who gets physically ill at the sight of blood isn't much use at a car accident or a stabbing. People who get vertigo when they climb a ladder over 10' off the ground can't very well help someone out a apartment block window or take a line up the ladder to a roof. Claustrophobic.... better not be putting a mask on and crawing around in the pitch dark in a strange room. Not physically fit? You better be, because if something happens to me you better be able to drag my a$$ out when needed.

I remember a story about a volunteer dept running an ad in their local paper asking for new volunteers. A guy in a electric wheelchair showed up. They thanked him for his interest, but told him no thanks. He sued because there ad never stated there was any qualifications. The judge tossed the suit. The FD told him to come and hang around the station if he wanted to but they weren't going to spend the money for special equipment for him. He was happy with that.

[VINMAN]

The fire academy quickly weeds out those that cant handle or are not fit enough for the job. The olden days of just anyone being a volunteer firefighter are long gone. The training is long, tough and has become very realistic.

Jeff, your idea of a tax write of has been suggested over and over, and has been laughed at by the Govt officials. Ya think the Govt is gonna give up $$$ ?? That sure as hell aint happening!

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by strupgolf

Funny story. While I was getting gas in our town, a semi made a right turn and hit a 50 year old light pole, not working, but still there. I told the girl next to me, "watch this". Now there was no damage to the truck, street, cars, etc. Withing a few minutes there were 2 city police cars, 3 country police cars, 2 ambulances, 2 fire trucks and who know's who else. The fire station was a 1/2 block down the street and they could have looked out the door to see nothing happened. My point being at budget time, the fire chief will get up and say "our department responded to 595 incidents last year so we need more money etc, etc, etc.

Welcome to the modern world of cell phones.

Caller 1 to 911 says "Semi just hit a utility pole at XY intersection" 911 asks "is there wires down?" Caller says "I don't know, I'm headed South"

Caller 2 to 911 says "There's a accident with a big truck on X street, it's blocking traffic." 911 asks "at what intersection?" Caller who's heading North looks up and tells them the intersection they just passed (which is 2 blocks North of the actual accident)

Now 911 thinks they have two accidents 2 blocks apart and sends the appropiate equipment and it all shows up at the same spot.

Happens all the time

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by Radioactive

Dave I think our town should cross train the police to be fireman or the other way around, There doesn't seem to be that many fires or big crime and if there is a car accident the police have to show up anyways. Instead of the fireman sitting around waiting for a fire they can patrol the streets. Or since they Police are patrolling the streets they can put out the fires and give medical aid. If you have a Policeman/Fireman/EMT already in a moving vehicle wouldn't the response time be very good. Isn't Our Police Chief the Fire Chief. If he can do it why can't everybody
else. .

This has been tried in several areas. Last place I visited like this was Rosemount, Ill. They have stations with just drivers/engineers and they take the trucks to a call and then a whole bunch of police cars show up for manpower.

Only problem is the crooks figured out when there is a fire there are no police around. So they would set a fire and then go do a robbery.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by Radioactive

Dave I think our town should cross train the police to be fireman or the other way around, .

After all FDNY and NYPD have such a great working relationship...

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

For me, the budget area that irks me is "school debt" Why the heck can't a school save up some money for expansion, instead of keeping a huge debtload going and expanding again before the last one is paid off? Its a constant drain!

I am a policeman in SoCal.

Several months ago, a city councilman (who is slippery, but I like him) came to roll call.

I asked him why we needed to "spend" every tax dollar that came in.

(for instance, my city just "found" almost 4 million dollars due to stronger than projected sales tax revenue and property tax revenue)

He wiggled, shifted his weight, hem-hawed and then finally used the term "managed indebtedness." In a nutshell, California city councils literally seek to spend every dollar that comes in because it is very prestigious to "fund projects" that "increase" the quality of life blah blah blah.

and so goes California, circling the drain.

I felt like throwing up.

In four years and one month I will go back home to Cincinnati, pay $350 to $400 cash for a home, buy as many apartments as I can afford (at $28 - $35 per unit ) and collect my $90k per year CALPERS pension for the rest of my life.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

There is a pretty big risk that a fireman will die too, not much risk like that in the private sector for that money... Sorry, hard to not be willing to pay someone who is willing to risk his or her life to protect me & my property...

America’s 10 Most Dangerous Jobs (From Cashmoneyforlife.com)

1. Fisherman: Fatality rate: 200 per 100,000 – Median wages: $23,600. I was surprised to see fishermen top the list of the most dangerous professions in the US, but then I remembered watching a few episodes of Deadliest Catch. Fishermen are routinely exposed to the elements and heavy equipment, all of which can be dangerous. The recent oil spill in the gulf exposed thousands of fishermen to oil and other chemical pollutants, so we may see the effects from that in the near future. Is it worth it? Some Alaskan fishermen have earned up to $100,000 for only a couple days work. But as you can see, most fishermen only scrape by, earning median wages of $23,600.

2. Logger: Fatality rate: 61.8 per 100,000 – Median wages: $34,440. Logging is the number two most dangerous job on the list, but a quick look at the numbers shows over 3 times as many fishermen die from work related injuries than the number two item on the list. Loggers work with heavy equipment and often in remote locations; the location and lack of full medical facilities often increasing the risk of injury related deaths.

3. Airline Pilots: Fatality rate: 57.1 per 100,000 – Median wages: $106,240. This statistic might be a little misleading as there aren’t many commercial airline crashes in the US in any given year. Most pilot deaths come from small one and two engine aircraft. The salary might be slightly misleading as well – it seems to be skewed toward higher paid commercial airline pilots, who generally have a safer job than other pilots. Still, piloting is a dangerous profession, even with new technology and arguably the safest aircraft and procedures in the history of man.

4. Farmers and ranchers: Fatality rate: 35.8 per 100,000 – Median wages: $32,350. Farmers are exposed to the elements, heavy machinery, large animals, and many other dangerous activities. Many farmers also work under pressure. For example, growing crops takes all season, but harvesting usually needs to be completed as quickly as possible because the machinery often needs to be used at other locations.

5. Roofers: Fatality rate: 34.7 per 100,000 – Median wages: $33,970. Roofing is a difficult and dangerous profession with injuries related to falls, tools and equipment, hot tar, exposure to the elements and more.

6. Ironworkers: Fatality rate: 30.3 per 100,000 – Median wages: $44,500. Have you ever seen a skyscraper being built? It’s amazing to watch those guys walking across a couple inch piece of steel several hundred feet above the street. It’s also incredibly dangerous. Safety measures and regulations have come a long way in the last few decades, but this is still one of the most dangerous professions.

7. Sanitation Worker: Fatality rate: 25.2 per 100,000 – Median wages: $32,070. Large equipment, and exposure to chemicals and the elements make this a more dangerous profession than many would assume.

8. Industrial machinist: Fatality rate: 18.5 per 100,000 – Median wages: $39,600. Accidents with heavy machinery are the most common cause of death for this career field.

9. Truckers and drivers/sales delivery workers: Fatality rate: 18.3 per 100,000 – Median wages: $37,730. Truck drivers don’t lead the list the list in terms of deaths per 100,000 workers, but they actually lead the list when it comes to total numbers of deaths because there are more truckers and deliverymen than the other professions. Accidents and weather are the main causes of death on the job.

10. Construction laborer: Fatality rate: 18.3 per 100,000 – Median wages: $29,150. Heavy machinery and accidents with construction equipment lead the way.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

In four years and one month I will go back home to Cincinnati, pay $350 to $400 cash for a home, buy as many apartments as I can afford (at $28 - $35 per unit ) and collect my $90k per year CALPERS pension for the rest of my life.

My dad payed a little more than $100,000.00 into his retirement and benefits package as a police officer. Since his retirement, he has drawn out more than $2,000,000.00. Great news for my dad, but is this sustainable?

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

there is a time to scoop and boogey..

Every cop who works in an urban environment knows that if your partner is shot/stabbed/gravely injured, you scoop and go.

We train on exactly how to "pick up" and "load up" a 240 pound (with gear) officer utilizing two rescue officers or one officer (worst case scenerio).

I will never stand around and wait for my buddy to die.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by GWN7

Funny when I look at my paycheque and see the deduction for pension I didn't realise that someone else payed that ammount for me. I thought it came off my cheque, that I earned. As to banking overtime to boost a pension, most pensions are based on a 5 year average so unless they worked overtime for 5 years and whole bunch of it too, it wouldn't increase their pensions very much. Most penisons actually exclude OT in their calculations. I'd rather have the time off. As to 80% going on disability, well that's just laughable, especially at age 50. Ask anyone who has had to go on disability how that system works. Yes a voluntary FD works, but you get what you pay for.

No offense, but your experience in Canada has absolutely no relationship to how this is handled in California. It sounds to me like you guys may have a better system than we do.

In CA, they base the pension on the immediate last year's pay. There was a bill to base it on the last 3 years, but that just failed in Sacramento, where the government employees' unions control everything.

[cairns]

Actually here's a better idea - if you do volunteer as a firefighter (we could do the same thing for cops or other various "civic" type jobs - you get a $10k tax write off.

Voila! You just cut the cost of salaries by 90% and you'll have people beating the doors down to do it.

POP you've come up with some excellent ideas on this board. The one above was only the latest. Please keep it up.

*PS I would even up the write off.

[VINMAN]

I know some volunteer dept members get breaks on certain things. Like not having to pay for town issued permits( building, dog licenses) or discounts on town run daycamps or programs.

[glewis80SC]

Man where do I start:
Background: 10 years FF/Paramedic for Los Angeles Fire Dept., Volumteer FF for smaller local dept for 5 years before the LAFD.

Yes we need the paid professional fire service we have personnel ready to respond 24 hours a day with volunteer depts there can be a huge delay in getting personnel on scene and during any true emergency those are the most important minutes. I have nothing againt being a volunteer and those depts but you do get quicker response times with paid professional depts.
I make a good salary at what I do, not a get rich salary but a liveable one as long as I stay within my means, there are guys that make more and chose to work overtime anytime, I prefer to be home with kids. I have years a training as a FF/Medic and with any trained profession I expect a decent salary for that training and education.
I do pay towards our pension system every pay day, if you break down that my salary comes from taxpayers than I suppose yes it is taxpayer dollars. I also pay into a defered comp account each check, I do not expect to live high on the hog with pension money. Our system is based on the previous years base salary not on banked overtime.
As for staying on scene too long with a critical patient, if that occured like Moses stated, that is not the norm. As stated before in LA County we are bound by certain protocols as to what we are required to do prior to arriving at the ER, if those are not done we can face suspension etc., the complaint usually comes from an ER doctor that has no clue what it is to work on an ambulance. If we were to just arrive on scene and say "get in" we are not serving the public. We go on soooooooo many calls that do not even justify a 911 call, we have to do a good patient assessment to determine the right treatment. It takes training and experience to be able to identify a truely critical patient, and I assure you we do not just sit on scene all treatment is done in the ambulance in route to the ER. Paramedics are just a part of the larger EMS system we know that the ER can provide more advanced care but we are the front line and provide the first step and initial care. I love to talk with the ER doctors and see how I can do things better and tap into their knowledge to help me provide better care, it is unfortunate that Moses has such a negative outlook on the service i provide.
There may be the perception that we just sit around all day and wait for calls to come in, that is not the case again. Our day is spent on continuous training, fire prevention, station and apparatus maintenance. Yes we have down time it is not possible to be running for 24 hours straight. Come spend a day at my station and you will see how much we sit around.
It may seem like overkill to send so many personnel out to a minor traffic or EMS incident, but we would rather have the people ther if needed than delay care while having to wait for other to arrive, it is NOT to bump up our numbers.
I love my job....I mean I REALLY love what I do, I feel this is what I was put here to do. Trust me, when and if you ever call we will arrive as quick as we can and provide you with professional service any time of day. I assure you that if you or someone you know is ever trapped in a burning building I will risk my life to save yours without hesitation..that is what you pay me for.