Paid Firemen - do we need them

[daepp]

I live in a small bedroom community in Southern California. We have our own professional fire department. The small bedroom community next door to us has their own FD. From time to time it is mentioned that we should get rid of our fire department and go with the county. But the FD always makes the argument that then we would lose local control and local familiarity by the FD.

So why not go volunteer? Judging from the men I know and the long lines when the FD is hiring, we would have a bumper crop of volunteers. Perhaps the city/county or state could provide the necessary training? And I happen to know that our local FD almost never responds to actual fires. More than 90% are medical emergencies where the hook and ladder with rear driver roles to support the EMT.

The bottom line is, how long can our society afford to pay the high FD salaries, and their bloated retirements. In CA, it is common practice to bank overtime or give it to the soon-to-be retired to artificially inflate their pensions. And by some accounts up to 80% go out on disability near the end of their careers (at around 50) so that half of their retirement income becomes non-taxable.

Didn't a voluntary FD work for a very long time? Why won't it work now.

[Amail]

From what I've seen across the country, many communities have volunteer FD's. My dad in Maryland has a volunteer FD.

I used to volunteer at Deer Springs FD in North San Diego County way back in the day - 1982 or so. I don't know if it's still a volunteer organization or not, but it seemed to work out pretty well. There was definitely a difference, though, in professional paid staff versus volunteers. You can be a lot more choosy with paid. If it were me, I think I'd prefer to have paid vs volunteer protection.

[mossguy]

It works very well right now in New Philadelphia, Pennsylvania!

Best,
Tom

[Noah930]

FWIW, I heard on the news today that the recent fire in Boulder, CO was accidentally started by a volunteer fireman... Maybe it's better to go with the pros?

Seriously, I don't know the answer to your question. Maybe there's no right answer; it varies depending on your town's/county's situation.

[daepp]

I would definitely go with paid if we could afford it. But most of our firefighters are paid in 24 hour shifts where they spend most of their time not working. Can society afford that?

[Noah930]

The firefighters would ask the opposite question: when it's your house on fire, can you afford not to have professional firefighters sitting around waiting for the call?

There are certain professions where I'm glad if they sit around and do nothing.

I understand your question, though. I don't know the answer. If I had a chance to be 18 again, becoming a FF might have been a better career choice.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I would gladly volunteer for a local volunteer FD. Access to resources and equipment, training, etc. And the satisfaction of giving back to the community.

Actually here's a better idea - if you do volunteer as a firefighter (we could do the same thing for cops or other various "civic" type jobs - you get a $10k tax write off.

Voila! You just cut the cost of salaries by 90% and you'll have people beating the doors down to do it.

[daepp]

P.O.P - good point.

You know, what got me to think about this was a comment my young son (a Boy Scout) made. We were reading about a local hero, and he said "Dad, I wish I had an opportunity to save someone's life." Now setting aside for a moment whether or not he could, I remember thinking the same thing. As POP says, the satisfaction of giving back to the community. I suspect it runs deep in many people.

[deanp]

Volunteer fire department personnel hold regular jobs, the response time to a call is dictated by how soon they can get to the station, and then respond. If my house is on fire, or I have a medical emergency or car accident I'd prefer to know professionals are on duty and ready to respond.

The town I grew up in had a paid department with 2 and then 3 people per shift, 2days, 2nights, 4 days off. Shifts were 8AM to 6PM and obviously 6PM to 8AM. They also had a call department that consisted of two groups - which got paid a nominal amount of money based on the percentage of calls they showed up for. The groups would alternate - one week of on call, then one week off call.

The normal department members also were responsible for the ambulance - First Reponders, EMTs, the works. If a car accident was bad enough, they would also tone the group.

I think a better trend would be to work towards eliminating pensions for all new municipal hires and eliminate that cost, but that is unlikely to happen.

[nostatic]

I think we should have volunteer air traffic controllers. That would be cool...

[daepp]

Maybe a minimal full-time force with a set of volunteers to back them up.

The mayor, my neighbor, indicated to me the other day that they are completely under utilized. We have one station that hasn't fought a fire in 23 months. And the FD unions seem to control much of local politics!

[whiskyb]

i was a volunteer for 7 years. 20 guys split the salary of one full time fire fighter based on attendance and practice. Simple and effective. If 80% of their calls are medicals hire more medics

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Todd, we do. Most airports are non-towered. Therefore the pilots follow set procedures and self-regulate the activity and sequencing at the airport.

Government is definitely NOT the answer to everything. It has its role to play sometimes, but that "sometimes" is less often than a lot of people have been conditioned to believe.

[nostatic]

I was thinking ZLA...

[makaio]

Originally Posted by Amail

I used to volunteer at Deer Springs FD in North San Diego County way back in the day - 1982 or so. I don't know if it's still a volunteer organization or not, but it seemed to work out pretty well. There was definitely a difference, though, in professional paid staff versus volunteers. You can be a lot more choosy with paid. If it were me, I think I'd prefer to have paid vs volunteer protection.

Deer Springs is actually a state contract station with paid staff now. I know a guy that is an Engineer at that station.

Just like any government (local, state, fed, etc...) employees, some work harder than others regardless if they are on an emergency call or not. IMHO we do need paid fireman. It's very hard to find a job anywhere that will allow you time off to fight a wildfire for 1-2 weeks. Not to mention the additional response time necessary for a volnteer to respond to a station and grab a fire apparatus to respond to a structure fire.

[daepp]

But there are so few fires to be fought. Look at the stats.

Maybe I'm just complaining because they seem so over staffed. When you consider modern building codes etc, thankfully fires are few and far between.

But the next time I see that monster ladder truck steering through a parking lot, the local library or condo association trying to miss all obstacles and responding to a fender bender or health scare, I think I'm gonna call my councilman. Completely unnecessary. We only have two building over two stories, and they have three stories. WTH?

[Moses]

Here I go...

The local Firefighters/Paramedics make me nuts. Despite irrefutable data that shows rapid initiation of transport is safest, they continue screwing around in the field taking a medical history, doing a physical evaluation and initiating treatment. All of this crap should be done in the truck en route to the hospital.

A girl who works for me lost a dear friend a month ago because of EMS on site delay. He was 46 years old and had chest pain. He lived 1 mile from a hospital that had a cardiac cath lab that most likely would have saved his life. He was alert and responsive when they arrived at his home. They took a history, did an ECG. Started an IV, even started a PICC line... On the floor in his bedroom. He died an hour after they arrived. They never got him on the truck.

This nightmare is played out every day across the country. All studies of emergency medical response indicate that "scoop and go" is the safest protocol. LA County hospital even showed that gunshot victims were more likely to survive if they were dropped off at the hospital by their friends than delivered by EMS.

When I worked in NY. I had to help train paramedics. It was pretty awful. Some of those guys seemed determined to delay transport so they could play doctor for a while in the field.

ALL of the EMS diagnostic and treatment modalities should be undertaken in the truck on the way to the hospital. The sad truth is that public safety might be better served if the ambulances were manned by longshoremen instead of EMS crews.

Rant over. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[daepp]

Oh my God, I had no idea. Wow - what a scandal!

[VINMAN]

Ah.... forget it. Never mind.....

[Moses]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Ah.... forget it. Never mind.....

I'd seriously love to hear your take on this. I'm not suggesting that our EMS guys are not well trained or incapable. I'm just suggesting that in the cities I'm familiar with, there has not been a proper emphasis on rapid transport. Maybe things are different in your department.