Paid Firemen - do we need them

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

your homeowners fire insurance premium is based on the type fire dept you have. pay the ins co, or pay the fireman pro.

[jyl]

Very interesting thread with input from all angles. Cool.

I guess that the questions I come away with are:

1. What is the correct level of fire protection service, considering the cost-benefit? Sounds, harsh, but there is a cost-benefit for everything. Even saving cute babies trapped in a house fire is not worth an infinite amount of money, especially considering there are alternative ways to save babies, like better pre-natal care, that may cost less per life.

2. What is the relationship of the level of fire department staffing to the amount of fire protection provided? Here in 500,000 population Portland OR, we spend $129MM/yr on the FD and the average first response time to a structure fire is 7 minutes. If we spent 20% less (more), would the response time lengthen (shorten) by 10%, 20%, 30%?

3. Should the 97% of the fire department's responses that are to things other than fires (medical, power lines, car accidents, etc) actually be done by the fire department? Is that the most efficient way to respond? Should we have fewer firefighters and fire engines and more paramedics crusing in ambulances?

4. What is the correct pay and benefits for firefighters? I think someone who is sworn to risk his life to save yours should be paid more - firefighters, police officers, combat military. At the same time, the economics of demand and supply are such that a fire department could probably hire qualified candidates for less than they are paying - in this economy. How do you balance that? And if some firefighters actually spend almost of their time being medical responders - not a life-sacrificial job usually - does that matter?

Just for interest, here are some numbers for the Portland OR FD in 2008-09.
- 750 employees, about 90% sworn
- $86.5MM budget, $42.5MM for retirement/disability of sworn personnel, total $129MM spent
- 3% of responses are for fires (2,016), 97% are for non-fires
- 90th percentile response time for fires 7 minutes
- 90th percentile response time for priority medical calls 9 minutes to patient's side
- 575,000 population served
- Civilian deaths from fire 7
- Structure fires with >$10K losses 284

[EDITING TO ADD THIS]

As I read this thread, I become more skeptical about relying too much on volunteer firefighters. The job seems too time-sensitive. I'm more interested in how you could more correctly or efficiently use paid firefighters.

[flatbutt]

The volunteer firemen in my town are highly trained and very competent. The problem is there aren't enough of them available during the day. They have families to feed. So if your house catches fire during the day here, forget it. The best they can do is muster one pumper with a minimal crew to keep it from spreading, your house is gone. On the other hand our paramedics are available 24 hours in numbers sufficient to cover most issues. I'd gladly pony up $$$ for full time firemen.

[glewis80SC]

John great questions I really don't know the answers to all of them. Yes there are alternative ways to save babies but in the lower income or homeless areas like I serve the Paramedic service is often times what they use for ANY pre-natal care. It is either at the delivery day or when complications arise, we try to educate but you know how that goes.

I'm not sure what the response time difference would be when you reduce staffing, we are going through that now with "brownouts". Due to budget cuts the dept. closes apparatus at stations on a rotation and the personnel are sent to others stations to fill vacancies instead of hiring overtime. We are also on a hiring freeze, the time of infinite money is long gone. The city want us to cut another 10% off out next budget.

The LAFD has FF/PM in every station so the infrastructure is all ready there for EMS, some cities/counties do hire out private Paramedic service I don't know if that saves money or not.

Working on an ambulance is not as exciting as a fire engine but there is risk in that too, TB HIV HEP C etc. Plus the number two killer of firefighters/paramedics is traffic collisions while responding or getting hit while on scene.

Like any industry the fresh candidate will go to the "firm" with the best pay/benefits so the quality of personnel could go down i suppose or you would get a larger attrition rate due to people leaving for better paying depts.

A lot of the time we have to "educate" people on what the 911 system is set up for, it is across the board rich and poor we go out on some of the dumbest calls, but we don't prioritize like PD, plus due to law suits against us for not going the dept. send us out on everything. If it not law enforcement related we are the ones that go.

[RoninLB]

Metro NYC has place called Long Island. On appx. 4/5 of Long Island are Nassau County and Suffolk Co. w/pop of over 2,000,000

It's not rural by any means and some areas have just about the highest property taxes in the US. [try buying a home in Southampton]

From fire to MVA/EMS, to surface and underwater rescue to terrorist attack response etc etc the area is 99.999% VFD


go figure

[daepp]

"Former Bell Police Chief Randy Adams had himself declared disabled even as he was hired for the post, a move that could make him millions of dollars in tax-free pension income when he retires, according to records and interviews."

Former Bell police chief had a lucrative tax angle for retirement - latimes.com

This guy doubled his salary and had his retirement untaxed!

[Mark Henry]

We have a volunteer fire department, they have never lost a basement yet.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by glewis80SC

There may be the perception that we just sit around all day and wait for calls to come in.........

Obviously false. We know how many chrome bits you have on those engines, which need periodic polishing, and the dalmations need to be walked, etc.

Kidding. Just trying to be funny. Tim Hancock's story is familiar and satisfying. Communities should work like that. Volunteerism can be very responsive. But as far as paid fire fighters goes, I'm supportive. Of course. Being a guy who believes in community and government. I like the idea that there are guys nearby who have the equipment and training to handle serious emergencies that threaten lives and property.

[AFD660]

Im a paid firefighter.. and my experience with volunteers are postive, that is when they show up. being a volunteer they get to pick and choose what calls they go on. alot of them dont go to medical calls because its not exciting, would you want a loved one not to be responded to because you only have volunteers??? they go to fires though but it does take them at least 10 minutes to respond, they have to drive from their house or wherever to a fire station then transfer their gear to the fire truck, maybe wait on another volunteer to show up or whatever.. show up on scene then get bunkered out.

another thing about volunteers is alot of them just like spraying water on fire... believe it or not it is a technical job, more than just putting water on fire. if you use too much... water damage can spread throughout the whole house instead of just being contained to one side. theres more examples but thats just one. ( i used to be a volunteer, and when im not on shift i'm a volunteer at a county station)

i do agree with you that some do get paid a ton of money for doing nothing.. but thats also in the private sector... no offense to anybody but lets look at mechanics... some places charge 80 an hour. quite a bit in my book... the fire dept is the only dept that i can think of that "makes money" when they roll on medical calls and do transport like my city does then the transport bill goes toward the city, for the city. so basically we are working to pay ourselves. some days we have no calls... some days we have 20 calls with no break, not to eat, not to take a NO.2.. nothing. but maybe some places can do with cuts and lessening of wages. but thats a whole other can of worms...

[glewis80SC]

Originally Posted by Superman

Obviously false. We know how many chrome bits you have on those engines, which need periodic polishing, and the dalmations need to be walked, etc.

Kidding. Just trying to be funny. Tim Hancock's story is familiar and satisfying. Communities should work like that. Volunteerism can be very responsive. But as far as paid fire fighters goes, I'm supportive. Of course. Being a guy who believes in community and government. I like the idea that there are guys nearby who have the equipment and training to handle serious emergencies that threaten lives and property.

Superman you have no idea, my arms are always cramping from the hours of polishing. No dogs at our station the homeless would steal him for dinner plus Dalmatians are too moody.

[RoninLB]

County and town VFDs all over LI get 2% $ from insurance co's for policies written by homeowners. Many VFD have huge amt's of $ to spend. It keeps the guys involved big time. FDNY procedures is very influential as well as culture. As a large group FD rigs are so tricked out just about every old rig salesman in the country has it for coffee conversation at least once.

it's not surround and drown by any means

[cashflyer]

Pay your firemen, or else!



Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate
By Brett Michael Dykes brett Michael Dykes Tue Oct 5, 4:17 pm ET

Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn.

Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism. (See their arguments here, here, here, here and here.)

Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."

"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."

Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.

"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."



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