Brazilian GP

[DaveE]

I understand your sentiments Henry. I personally would love to see Vettel win, or Weber for that matter. Red Bull clearly has the dominant car. I think Alonso, for all his past drama, has proven he's a great driver, and maybe a lucky one as well considering his good fortune to be able to take advantage of Red Bull's bed fortune and mistakes. He's had his own bad luck this year also though.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Next week, when Fred's engine explodes (wishful thinking) we can watch Vettlel and Webber battle it out with the best driver in F1 (Vettlel) going home with the gold.

When that happens, will vettel wreck skelator or the other way around?

Vettel's made more dumb mistakes this year than the rest of the front runners combined. There's a reason people have been questioning his maturity and skills all year.

[enzo1]

Jenson Button survives machine gun ambush thanks to his driver - Americas, World - The Independent

[LeRoux Strydom]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

I find it awkward discussing F1 with a person who equates team work with breaking the rules. We can agree to disagree on that. I would call it a matter of integrity.

You're right, team orders are against the current rules, we don't disagree on that. OTOH, everyone knows it is a stupid, unenforceable rule that most teams want to get rid of. So most teams find ways of working around the letter of the stupid rule.

Some team sport that does not allow teamwork..

F1 is mostly about pushing the boundaries of the rules - mostly technical. However, show me a team who has not pushed against the other rules? Think spying scandals, bribery, stealing designs etc etc. Everyone has been guilty at some time.

[sammyg2]

Did anyone else notice yesterday how the commentators were asking themselves in astonishment why red bull didn't use team orders to help webber? Even though vettel has been their number one all year ..........

That came right out and said they were shocked that red bull didn't do it and they commented how the press were going to have a field day second-guessing them for not doing it.

So basically what I hearing is it's wrong when ferrari did it, but it's expected and normal and part of the sport and should be expected.

Maybe that's because red bull has already used team order this year. Playing fair and square my butt.
I don't like team orders either but to pretend that only ferrari did it and red bull is innocent is a tad silly.
Lots of folks think that's why they crashed each other earlier this year, because vettel was pissed that webber didn't want to let him past even though he was supposed to according to "unofficial" team orders so vettel gave him a little swerve and didn't judge it right and hit webber.

May 30th, 2010:

During the Post Race Press Conference, some cryptic responses about his pace were given from Webber.

Q : Is there any reason why he had a jump on you on that particular lap?
MW : Hmm. Maybe.

Q : Did you come out of the previous corner a bit slower on that lap?
MW : Hmm. You guys need to dig more, somewhere else.

During this time, Helmut Marko, to guy who brought Vettel into the fold at Red Bull, and who seems to have his hands in all sorts of things in Upper Management, was asked a few very interesting questions with some very interesting replies.

Q : Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
HM : That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.

Q : Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
HM : I think it was in the tires

[Henry Schmidt]

What Red Bull did was to allow their drivers to race and in doing so, put both of them in contention for the WDC.
If the race plays out like last year, Red Bull should have the pace of the field and can execute team orders if necessary. I hope they don't.
I have been predicting a Vettel WDC all year and can hardly give up on him now.
I am not naive enough to believe that Vettel won't help Webber as soon as his chances for the title are gone but they are not gone yet.
Who here is skipping the race because you believe that the title is already decided?
Exactly my point.

As far as development drivers, didn't Vettel and Webber take a back marker team (7th in 2008) and in 2009 close the gap on an obviously superior car (Brawn) to have the best car on the grid by the end. Where was Ferrari and Fred last year ?
This year was a continuation of last years hard work and no one has made much ground on them this year.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

As far as development drivers, didn't Vettel and Webber take a back marker team (7th in 2008) and in 2009 close the gap on an obviously superior car (Brawn) to have the best car on the grid by the end. Where was Ferrari and Fred last year ?
This year was a continuation of last years hard work and no one has made much ground on them this year.

Adrian Newey might take exception to whom you give all the credit here to.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Adrian Newey might take exception to whom you give all the credit here to.

I don't give all the credit to anyone. I understand that F1 is a team sport.
Adrian is without doubt the best designer in F1 and deserves a great deal of credit for Red Bull's success but it's my understanding that he bundles up everything he drives so perhaps drivers input has a little to do with the success as well.
As we all saw on Sunday, Adrian got some credit when he accepted the constructors trophy.
We might also want to credit Renault for their exception lump without which RB would be pushing their car.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by tchanson

....clip....
Had Alonso or Hamilton been in a RB6 this year, the title would have already been decided.

Tim

A statement of fact with no way to prove one way or the other
Spoken like a true fan.....
Cheers

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

We might also want to credit Renault for their exception lump without which RB would be pushing their car.

Hate to pile on, but Renault might want to forget about Korea - that lump became a grenade. . .

(this is all in good fun, it has been a great season, the new points system has been just what we've needed for a long time, and KO qualifying is the greatest. Whoever wins the Drivers Championship definitely deserves it.)

[nostatic]

I don't think there is a double standard when it comes to team orders - there is no standard. Ferrari clearly used them in Germany and that is part of why Alonso has his current lead. RBR may have used them earlier in the season, but certainly didn't use them yesterday.

Maybe it'll even out next race when Vettel takes out FA on lap 15 or so.

In his defense, I think Webber has been pretty calm and gracious the last couple races despite being under intense pressure. He wasn't pouting or throwing a hissy fit yesterday. And he totally owned up to his sloppy wreck in Korea.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Adrian Newey might take exception to whom you give all the credit here to.

LOL, I agree.

Was it vettel or webber who designed that double diffuser?

If vettel wins it won't hurt my feelings. Same for alonso.
I'd rather not see webber or hambone win. Neither deserves it IMO.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

I would agree with most of your statement.
I am especially impressed by the way Fred won in Korea. The way he set up that Ferrari to dominate the rest of the field.
There was no way Vettel /Red Bull could have surpassed that excellent development work.

Originally Posted by nostatic

Webber ... totally owned up to his sloppy wreck in Korea.

Alonso may have been very lucky to have won in Korea, but to say he was undeserving is quite unfair. The guy who crosses the finish line before all others for the given race distance is the guy who's the winner. Not the guy who qualifies fastest or second fastest on Saturday. FA could keep his car on the track and off the wall (unlike Webber) and preserve his car's engine (unlike Vettel) to the end of the race and do it faster than anyone else. How else would you define the victor?

Whoever wins the title--whether it be Vettel, Webber, Alonso, or even Hamilton--is going to be the deserving season champion.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I don't think there is a double standard when it comes to team orders - there is no standard. Ferrari clearly used them in Germany and that is part of why Alonso has his current lead. RBR may have used them earlier in the season, but certainly didn't use them yesterday.

.

If anything, ferrari should have been punished for being stooopid when massa let alonzo by back then.

Their competion had it worked out so that they didn't need to come over the radio and say something so thinly veiled, they understood where they stood before the race began.

The impression I got (gutt feel) was that the ferrari team did not want to call massa on the radio and in alleged code tell him to let alonzo by, they did it reluctantly after a phone call from Marinello ordering them to do it. Whoever made that call figured they could get away with it because red bull had done the same thing earlier in the season and gotten away with it.


If we look back at the radio conversation with webber prior to the crash, they were telling him that vettel's tires were better (he was faster) and that if he didn't get by he was gonig to be passed by hambone.
It was pretty obvious what they were implying.

Webber slowed for a second for no obvious reason and vettel went by, only to give webber a hip check when he did it as if to say nya nya like a spoiled little kid.

Unfortunately for them that hip check caught them both and damaged the cars. I don't believe vettel intended for contact to happen, he was just trying to scold webber for taking so long to let him by.

Not for a second do I believe that collision was due to the team's "letting them race". I think webber wanted to keep racing but they told him not to, just like with massa.
Same same.

Red bull didn't get punished because they punished themselves.
Then a few races later ferrari pulled the same stunt but it was more obvious because they were stoopid about it.

There's a reason ferrari didn't get slapped very hard. It was because red bull had done the same thing prior and didn't even get a slap.

What they should have done was force the ferrari pit team to take acting lessons.

I'd bet your next paycheck that after all that crap went down, FIA sat them all down and said no more. Abnyone else wanna play that game they get punted from the field.

Yes webber and vettel raced for it yesterday, but part of that might have been because webber's car was overheating and slow. Vettel backed off the pace to stay even after webber had to de-tune to keep from overheating more.
I don't think vettel could have slowed down enough to let webber pass with out it being really obvious. I don't think they could have pulled it off without getting in big trouble.

The same exact thing could be said about massa.
Hambone was chansing alonzo and had to lap massa to stay close. Massa could have diced it out and fought with him and slowed him down by several seconds easy. Bu he didn't. He pulled over and let hambone by immediately and without delay.

He never would have done that in the past.
No, both teams were playing it squeaky clean yesterday and I don't think it was because they all found religion.

They were both under a microscope and they knew it.

[Zeke]

I'd like to see Webber win the championship only because he's been around, paid his dues, drove some awful cars (Jaguar, Minardi) and looked forever like he was a backmarker at best with his timing joining Williams working against him as the team deteriorated.

We know he can drive. Most of the top ten in points are all excellent pilots. Vettle's day is coming soon enough. Ferrari and Alanso will have a few successful seasons.

So this year I'd like to see some change. Next year will belong to Hamilton, Vettle, perhaps Alonso and maybe Rosberg if the Mercedes gets with the program. I think if Webber wins the WDC this year, next year he won't be as effective. He, Schumacher and Barrichello can race behind the young guns. That is if Barrichello comes back. Man that guy has some miles behind him.

I don't want to fail to mention Kubica. Put him in the right car and he will be there.

[sammyg2]

On a side note, did anyone see Bernie respond to the question before the race about the armed thugs trying to hijack one of the drivers?
He said something like " the story keep changing. The latest I heard was they were just approached by a street vendor trying to sell them something".

Wow, talk about trying to polish a turd.

[legion]

Originally Posted by enzo1

Jenson Button survives machine gun ambush thanks to his driver - Americas, World - The Independent

I also noticed that Bernie brushed it off. IIRC, another driver had a similar problem.

But driver safety off-track doesn't matter when you have a government-subsidized grand prix.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by legion

I also noticed that Bernie brushed it off.

And, true to his low-life roots, he manages to insult the people that suffered the problems:

"They look for victims, they look for people who are a little bit slow and simple, but the people who look a bit bright, they never go after them," he said.

Given that one attack was on 3 of the Sauber engineers, the other on the reigning world champion and other respectable people, how can his comments be anything other than an insult.

I hate that litttle ****er.

JR

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by tchanson

Had Alonso or Hamilton been in a RB6 this year, the title would have already been decided.

Actually, if the RB6 was reliable, Vettel would be WDC.

Just the easy changes: dropping from a solid lead to 4th place in Bahrain because of a spark plug, and the two he retired from the lead, Australia and Korea, if he had won those races he would have clinched the WDC in Korea.

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Was it vettel or webber who designed that double diffuser?

The Red Bull car didn't have a double diffuser last year. That was the Brawn, Williams, and Toyota. And Red Bull was one of the teams that protested.

[Henry Schmidt]

............edit..........
I'll repost it later......