Ferrari 348's

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

What about older 330 GTs? How user friendly are those?

Think clapped out Alfa, Fiat or Lancia with very expensive and often NLA parts.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by notfarnow

McLovin has some experience with Ferraris and spoke about them a few months ago:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/570018-ferrari-456gt.html

Someone in that thread also said that the 328 was the last of the DIY friendly Ferraris (as ar as Ferraris go, anyway). There is a local fellah with a 328 and he told me the same thing, the 328 isn't as quick or mdern feeling as a 348, but much easier to troubleshoot & work on.

Funny, last night I almost posted about Testarossas... I just can't get over the prices. Plenty of great cars for 50K, and if you hunt around there seem to be some nice ones for <40k. Seems pretty extraordinary for the Ferrari flagship of the 80's. Equivalent Countaches seem to be 2x the price... I know they are more "exotic" but the Testarossa seems so much more driveable. Why are 512bb's worth 2x a Testarossa? Am I missing something?

And while we're on the topic of Ferraris, anyone else here perversely attracted to the "orphan" models? GT4, Mondial, 412?

TR's where factory made rather than hand built. That makes a difference in the long run on value - also BB's are much harder to get parts for, making parts cars worth a lot - which drove up the price of a good car by even more. BB's high prices are a "recent" happening of the past five years or so.

[sc_rufctr]

This thread is very "deja vu"

[kaisen]

Ferraris make Porsche 911s look like Camrys in terms of build quality, reliability, parts availability/price, and cost of ownership ESPECIALLY when they are driven daily. There are people that do it, of course, but they are a rare exception.

If you've got $45K to spend on a car and $5K/yr to blow on maintaining it, I can think of a dozen or so cars that I'd rather have. Like a 996TT. Or a

OR, why not get an NSX? It may not be the same, but it's also not the same in good ways.

BTW, aren't you a perfect candidate for a company car?

[Schumi]

I am the perfect candidate for a company car, but they aren't quite giving those away.

I've seen several nice 348's for sale around LA for sub-35 prices. A 996TT, IMO, is the end all car as far as affordable speed goes, but even those are still 45k+ money. And they have their fair share of mechanical problems as well (although I would be far more comfortable working on one)

I do not like the Japanese cars- no NSX for me.

I told myself that my next car would be a Lotus, but these 348's popping up just keep catching my eye.

[cairns]

I told myself that my next car would be a Lotus, but these 348's popping up just keep catching my eye.

Cold showers will help.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Schumi

I am the perfect candidate for a company car, but they aren't quite giving those away.

I've seen several nice 348's for sale around LA for sub-35 prices. A 996TT, IMO, is the end all car as far as affordable speed goes, but even those are still 45k+ money. And they have their fair share of mechanical problems as well (although I would be far more comfortable working on one)

I do not like the Japanese cars- no NSX for me.

I told myself that my next car would be a Lotus, but these 348's popping up just keep catching my eye.

My strongly held professional opinion:

A $35K 996TT will be a much better car than a $35K 348.
A nice 60K mile 996TT is more bulletproof than a nice 25K mile 348.

If you'd like help finding a 996TT, let me know. There are many nice daily-driven '01-03 996TTs in SoCal for $35ish.

A $35K 348 will very quickly sink you financially.

[audiman08]

Originally Posted by Schumi

I told myself that my next car would be a Lotus, but these 348's popping up just keep catching my eye.

I would go with a Lotus Esprit V8. You can get a lot more car for the $ when it doesn't have a Ferrari badge on the hood IMHO. I've seen the 90s Esprits in the same price range with really low miles. I may be a little biased though, I've always liked the Esprit. Good luck with whatever you decide...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

listen to Kaisen, he will help you get a good car.

[Tim Hancock]

I have always wondered why folks claim these cars are so poorly built and what actually breaks on them necessitating tens of thousands of dollars to continuously repair them.

I mean can't a hard core DIY type keep one of these running if he is determined to do so? Most seem to imply that Ferrari machanics are some sort of gods..... I just can't imagine that these cars could not be maintained by mere mortals so long as they had the patience and shop manuals.

[Schumi]

Originally Posted by audiman08

I would go with a Lotus Esprit V8. You can get a lot more car for the $ when it doesn't have a Ferrari badge on the hood IMHO. I've seen the 90s Esprits in the same price range with really low miles. I may be a little biased though, I've always liked the Esprit. Good luck with whatever you decide...

When I said Lotus, I meant Elise. The S2 platform cars are the only Lotus cars I would own (sans a 7).

[audiman08]

Originally Posted by Schumi

When I said Lotus, I meant Elise. The S2 platform cars are the only Lotus cars I would own (sans a 7).

Well those are cool too

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

I have always wondered why folks claim these cars are so poorly built and what actually breaks on them necessitating tens of thousands of dollars to continuously repair them.

I mean can't a hard core DIY type keep one of these running if he is determined to do so? Most seem to imply that Ferrari machanics are some sort of gods..... I just can't imagine that these cars could not be maintained by mere mortals so long as they had the patience and shop manuals.

I think most of what you hear is hearsay. Kinda like all the rants about Audis...

I owned a couple Ferraris for about 15 years. I can say that they are pretty well engineered and the major pieces are as nice, or nicer, than what you'd find on a Porsche. Nothing of any consequence ever broke, nor was I ever afraid to drive them anywhere. Some of the trim and some of the body construction details were maybe what you'd expect on a low volume car. On the whole, though, the detailing was better executed on the shiny bits, the interior, etc.

Maintenance is more expensive because Ferrari charges more for parts, there are more things to do, and they take a little longer, because of the layout of the cars. Face it, it's hard to reach some of the stuff you have to get to. Pulling an engine on the cars designed for that type of servicing is pretty straightforward, it's just that the parts are a lot bigger and harder to deal with. A Testarossa engine comes out a quickly as a 911 engine, it's just way bigger. Ferrari dealerships are set up with the equipment to do it. The average Joe probably lacks the special cradle for the engine, etc. Servicing a car with the engine left in it (246, 308, 328) is difficult because half of the motor is hard to see, let alone reach.

Valve adjustments take longer, because of the valvetrain design, and because there are just more valves. Belt changes are nothing unusual; you just don't have that job on a 911. Suspension bushings are of a different design. They take more maintenance and don't last as long. Etc., etc.

There are plenty of people doing their own work on a Ferrari. Ferrarichat is full of them. Of course, there are a lot of idiots on Ferrarichat, as well.

One thing I will say is that for most models, there are one or two things that were not done well and cost big money to fix. The early V8 cars had overheating and some electrical issues, 348's had some trim issues (like many other cars of the same era) and electrical faults, early 355's had some bad valve guides and all 355's had the potential for a weird throttle problem. The 456 cars had problems with the side windows... I could go on but I can also say that pretty much every era of 911 had a potential problem waiting to bite you in the ass.

JR

[Arizona_928]

There is a neighbor down the street selling his 308. He's asking 4,600$ but I'm weary to ask what is wrong with it for that price!

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by javadog

I think most of what you hear is hearsay. Kinda like all the rants about Audis...


JR

I was not saying I would be happy to have to fix one all the time.... I only was guessing it might be possible for a hard core DIY type if he decided to purchase one. Maybe I should look for one as I have had plenty of practice (after all... I DIY'ed a high mileage Audi for a couple years).

[tabs]

I think I am having a nightmare...oh wait it is a chat about Ferrari ownership...whew there for a minute I was worried.

I wonder how many of youse guyz cana say that their name is Enzo the Italian mechanic...I pick up a wrench and drop it saying...Ouuuu I just got some grease on my fingers..as such the only mechanicals I wana deal with are sticking the key in the ignition and turning it...

Ferrari ownership involves quite a bit more....including making car support payments to your local Italian car mechanic and or spending your time underneath the car while trying to read about and figure out Italian engineering. Disa goes lika dat... In the end even if you becoma a maestro Italain car mechanic you still are going to be draining that check book at the Ferrari auto parts store..

Probelm with the older Ferraris is parts...you have to wait till someone decides to fabricate the one you need....

Even if you don't care about yourself think of your poor checkbook...if you want to drive a Ferrari GO RENT ONE....

[audiman08]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Maybe I should look for one as I have had plenty of practice (after all... I DIY'ed a high mileage Audi for a couple years).

The difference is, Audi parts are much cheaper I'm sure...

[MarKoBrow]

Originally Posted by audiman08

The difference is, Audi parts are much cheaper I'm sure...

I can tell you that this is not entirely true , in fact I own an Allroad which is a great car but not the most reliable

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

I have always wondered why folks claim these cars are so poorly built and what actually breaks on them necessitating tens of thousands of dollars to continuously repair them.

I mean can't a hard core DIY type keep one of these running if he is determined to do so? Most seem to imply that Ferrari machanics are some sort of gods..... I just can't imagine that these cars could not be maintained by mere mortals so long as they had the patience and shop manuals.

Anything can be DIY. People build entire airplanes in their home shops too.

There are several DIY guys on Ferrari Chat. Many do their own 30K Major services. The entire subframe is dropped out of the car. The general consensus is that it takes ~40 hours to do. And you shouldn't wait 30K miles, it's really once every four years. And you'd better have the electronic tensioner measuring tool (kinda like 944 belt gauge) or a place to rent/borrow one.

If you think Ferraris are as well-built as Porsches, you'd better look again, really hard. They are low volume. They had/have parent company bean counters that substituted cheap crap parts. They're engineered by Italians, not Germans. They're robust in some ways, and delicately fragile in others.

So, even if you were a DIY kind of guy with the ability, space, time, and tools, you'd still have to buy parts. Ah, there's the catch. As someone posted, many items are NLA and others are just plain nutso priced. Used parts are also very expensive.

I'm not suggesting that 348s are bad cars. They're great cars. But they're really not meant to be daily drivers unless you have a pretty big bankroll, a great technician (maybe DIY), and something else to drive while its being fixed.

Here's a typical INDEPENDENT 30K 'Major' service bill:
($12,722.05 total, only $4769 in labor)

[javadog]

Yeah, that's not a "typical" 30k service.

It's a 30k service, plus a water pump, a fuel pump, all the coolant hoses, a clutch job, front brakes, an A/C service, yada, yada, yada.

I'm going to have do disagree that Ferrari used cheap parts on their cars. Their aluminum castings are great. Brembo and Ate usually made the brakes. Koni did the shocks. Bosch made the fuel injection. Speedline often did the wheels. They used Wilton wool for the carpets. Some of the minor switch gear might be out of a Fiat in the old days but some of it was shared with a BMW more recently. ZF made the LSD bits and maybe, just maybe, in the old cars you might have found a Porsche-style synchromesh in the tranny.

There's no doubting that the parts are usually more money. But, sometimes Porsche bends you over for something, too.

JR