Ferrari 348's

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by AZ_porschekid

There is a neighbor down the street selling his 308. He's asking 4,600$ but I'm weary to ask what is wrong with it for that price!

Dang. I've heard the best thing to do with a 308 is park it in the driveway, and go look at it. Don't drive it, just look at it. For $4,600 I'd be tempted to buy it as a cool yard ornament!

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by javadog

Yeah, that's not a "typical" 30k service.

It's a 30k service, plus a water pump, a fuel pump, all the coolant hoses, a clutch job, front brakes, an A/C service, yada, yada, yada.
There's no doubting that the parts are usually more money. But, sometimes Porsche bends you over for something, too.

JR

It's typical for an owner to agree to the 'while we've got the engine out' items.

Hey, JUST do the timing belt and related seals and valve adjustment.
Skip the coolant hoses (even though they are known to burst -- many upgrade to silicone)
Skip the clutch or throw out bearing (even though 5-25K miles is end-life)
Skip the water pump (even though low mile pumps fail often)
Don't recharge the air conditioning (although you can't drop the engine without breaking the system)
Failure of any of the above items requires engine removal again. It's your call.

But you're right, there was $360 in rotors and a $56 power mirror switch in there. The tech might have charged $300 in labor for brakes and switch.
So you're right, a $11,900 bill would have been so much better as to refute the point being made.

[audiman08]

I've heard service bills on any Italian car (even Alfas) are outrageous. It's just the Italian way.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by kaisen

It's typical for an owner to agree to the 'while we've got the engine out' items.

Hey, JUST do the timing belt and related seals and valve adjustment.
Skip the coolant hoses (even though they are known to burst -- many upgrade to silicone)
Skip the clutch or throw out bearing (even though 5-25K miles is end-life)
Skip the water pump (even though low mile pumps fail often)
Don't recharge the air conditioning (although you can't drop the engine without breaking the system)
Failure of any of the above items requires engine removal again. It's your call.

But you're right, there was $360 in rotors and a $56 power mirror switch in there. The tech might have charged $300 in labor for brakes and switch.
So you're right, a $11,900 bill would have been so much better as to refute the point being made.

You know, I'm the poster child for 'as long as you're in there." Still, a major service is basically cam belts, tune-up parts and fluids. Valve adjustments are mileage dependent, like in a P-car. Clutch jobs are owner-dependent. I've never worn one out in my life, on anything. Some owners can't drive for ****, so maybe they kill one every 10k. That's nothing to do with the car. Low-mile water pumps fail on cars that sit, or those that have too-tight belts. And, lots of older Ferraris don't need an engine drop for a service, so no need to do the A/C unless it leaks. Like a Porsche...

Hey, I spent over $30k on a low-mileage 930, getting it caught up on deferred maintenance and fixing little crap that was needing attention. Nothing major, like an engine rebuild or re-seal, just lots and lots of little things.

That's common, on old cars. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

JR

[cairns]

For $35K you can buy a perfect 993. You can even buy a nice 993 Turbo for that...

Just a suggestion....

[jyl]

Long story short, unless Schumi has no problem writing $5K checks and wouldn't wince too badly writing $10K checks, OR has a big-enough garage with tools and lift and whatever special tools you can't borrow for a 348, he shouldn't do it. That seems pretty obvious.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by javadog

You know, I'm the poster child for 'as long as you're in there." Still, a major service is basically cam belts, tune-up parts and fluids. Valve adjustments are mileage dependent, like in a P-car. Clutch jobs are owner-dependent. I've never worn one out in my life, on anything. Some owners can't drive for ****, so maybe they kill one every 10k. That's nothing to do with the car. Low-mile water pumps fail on cars that sit, or those that have too-tight belts. And, lots of older Ferraris don't need an engine drop for a service, so no need to do the A/C unless it leaks. Like a Porsche...
JR

Except we're talking 348s, not Ferraris in general. 348s require a subframe drop for just about any motor-related labor op.

So the water pump, which is driven by the timing belt, can cause the timing belt to fail (either by seizing or vibrating, or by seeping coolant onto the rubber belt causing deterioration), which will cause a couple dozen valves to bend, which will lighten your wallet by a couple hundred benjamins. A car that sits is more likely to have water pump failure. Most Ferraris sit.

The second leading cause of failure is the crap tensioner bearings Ferrari used, especially in the early 348s. Ferrari did update the cars, and issued a TSB to retrofit older cars if there was an issue. Even the newer parts are not 'trusted' and many 348 owners will go to Hill bearings. If it's never been updated, it's a common $2000 add-on to a major service. Mostly parts.

Valve adjustments are much easier with the engine out, cam covers are already off, and even easier with the timing belts removed to rotate the cams. It is possible to do it in-chassis, it just costs more.

Schumi, as long as you can confirm that it just had a major service in the last couple years and has been driven regularly since, you don't need to worry much. The other failures and services aren't killers. Trouble is, the $35K 348s aren't usually the ones that have just had it done.

Schumi, if you do buy one, use Eugenio's Ferrari Service in Orange County (626-484-7933) . They are well respected and their rates are very reasonable. Their 'normal' major service like Javadog would do is only $4999, parts and labor.

And let me know if you think ANY parts of a nearly twenty year old 348 look to be in decent shape compared to a similar vintage Porsche. They usually look like crap, esp in SoCal.

[willtel]

Originally Posted by cairns

For $35K you can buy a perfect 993. You can even buy a nice 993 Turbo for that...

Just a suggestion....

You can get a 930 for $35k but not a 993tt, I'm assuming that is what you meant.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by jyl

Long story short, unless Schumi has no problem writing $5K checks and wouldn't wince too badly writing $10K checks, OR has a big-enough garage with tools and lift and whatever special tools you can't borrow for a 348, he shouldn't do it. That seems pretty obvious.

That's a good summary. Another way of saying it is you have to really, really be in love with a 348. Not just starting to be tempted b/c prices are so low (which this doesn't say, but kind of suggests):

Originally Posted by Schumi

I've seen several nice 348's for sale around LA for sub-35 prices.

I told myself that my next car would be a Lotus, but these 348's popping up just keep catching my eye.

If you "kinda like the looks" of a 348, but are really tempted mainly by the $30K price tag, that's not a good scenario. A common scenario, but not a good one.

As far as service in LA, I have a friend in LA that bought one a couple of years ago. There's a place called "Eugenio's" that many people rave about. He had a 30K service done there, I think it was around $6500 total (with new waterpump. On the earlier 3.2, you can easily change the waterpump without taking everything part, with the 348 the WP is easy to change during a service, but as a "stand alone" repair is very time consuming).

His car is fundamentally sound, but he doesn't drive it much. Mostly because as it turns out, he doesn't really like the way it drives or even looks. And, also, because it does seem like little, but expensive, things pop up. He's had problems with the shocks, which was expensive.

The current "issue" involves the cat temp sensor circuit, something is triggering an "overheat" condition and shutting half the engine down. It's apparently 2 relays or some other kind of "box" in the system (I think you can see one of them in the 348 "engine out" picture above, the green box in the center of the picture). There are 2 of them, both need to be replaced, $700 each. So this current hiccup will be a $2K issue.

Not the end of the world, but for many it takes a lot of the fun out of it, esp. if you aren't head over heels in love with the car, and it happens a few times.

[Canuck_Targa]

I was at a European car show and shine this summer put on by the local BMW club, the show was mostly BMW, Audi, and a few Porsche. The local "Exotic Car Club" agreed to come but only on their terms, arrive late, save the best spots for them, and leave after about 2 hours.
There were 4 or 5 Lambo's new and old, 4 Ferraris (supercharged 328, 355 spyder and a couple newer ones), an Astin Martin DB9 and a Porsche 996 Turbo.
The guy in the 996 came right over to talk to me (the only other Porsche there) and we talked for almost the whole time they were there.
The organizers of the show had rented the local road course track for anyone with their car in the show interested in a track day for their car. I asked the guy with the 996 if he was going and said he couldn't make it but had been at other events at that track and had a blast. I asked if the others in the "Exotic Car Club" were planning on going out to the track day. He laughed and said
"These guys do not track their cars, they barlely drive them. The guy with the Countach just waited 10 monthas for a part, and the guy with the 355 just spent $20,000.00 to get all his service done and back on the road"
After a while they got ready to leave, they had to boost one of the Lambos and then they were on their way with much fanfare.
They are all beautiful cars and I'm sure a hoot to drive, but not the kind of car you can or would drive to work on a nice day or jump in and drive to the lake on a beautiful summer day for the weekend.

I will take my 911 and drive it, something I think you would do alot less of with a Ferrari or Lambo.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Their 'normal' major service like Javadog would do is only $4999, parts and labor.

And let me know if you think ANY parts of a nearly twenty year old 348 look to be in decent shape compared to a similar vintage Porsche. They usually look like crap, esp in SoCal.

Weren't you paying attention? Didn't I say I was fond of while-we're-there add-ons. The last Ferrari I sold was this past July. It was a 328Gtb and it was easily one of the best-maintained examples in the US and it had a thick service file to prove it. Still...

The point I was trying to make was you have to differentiate between service and repair. It's all well and good to tell someone to avoid buying a 348 - it seems like I said the same thing early on in the thread- but the bill you presented doesn't neccessarily represent what he'll see every 3-5 years.

I have a 930 I bought new. It's been well-cared for and has only seen 50k miles. It does get driven regularly, though. Recently, the original CDI box crapped out. Porsche no longer sells these, so I replaced it with a used one. It also needed tires, but nobody makes a decent rear tire for it anymore. So, I got to replace the wheels, too. Not cheap, but now I can run modern tires. I need to fix one of the seat heating elements. No big deal, the part's a little under $200 - I just have to pull the seat and haul it down to the upholstery guy, so he can completely disassemble it to replace the element. I also just replaced the speakers, as the cardboard cones and foam in the originals are trashed (those were HIGH quality.) Nobody makes a drop-in replacement, so I got to modify what's out there so I can install them in a way that preserves the original appearance of the special-order full leather interior. While I'm at it, I think I'll pull the radio again and fix the pre-set buttons, since they all crapped out. Blaupunkt doesn't sell parts for that, so I get to make my own. Yippee. It's winter now, so I have a few months to decide whether this year I'll upgrade the A/C system to work on days above 75 degrees, or whether I'll just roll the windows down and sweat another season. I've also recently noticed a couple of drops of oil on the floor, so maybe I should look and see what's leaking... I could go on....

They are all old cars. They need stuff.

JR

[sc_rufctr]

Do you have $5,000 a year to blow on maintaining it? (Maybe less with a bit of hard work and good luck)

IMO It makes more sense to me to buy and maintain a Ferrari than buying a brand new car.

$5K Sounds "ouchy" but the reality is if you buy a brand new car you'll loose that on depreciation anyway.
Let me explain further... I can go out today and buy a brand new locally produced Holden Commodore or Ford Falcon.
With some extras, that would cost me about $34,000 to do right now.

So I keep this sensible family sedan for 5 years. At the end of that 5 years it's worth about $11,000.
So putting aside fuel, insurance and maintenance costs that car will depreciate $23,000 or just over 4 years of Ferrari ownership.
Let's say you keep the Ferrari for 5 years and swallow the maintenance costs.

The thing is the Ferrari will be worth more than either the Commodore or falcon after 5 years.

So the Ferrari will cost you more in "time"... Not money.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I posted earlier my neighbor DIYs an 80s Testarossa.

He's told me in 18 years of ownership it's never broken down or failed to start.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Canuck_Targa

.... "These guys do not track their cars, they barlely drive them. The guy with the Countach just waited 10 monthas for a part, and the guy with the 355 just spent $20,000.00 to get all his service done and back on the road"
After a while they got ready to leave, they had to boost one of the Lambos and then they were on their way with much fanfare.
They are all beautiful cars and I'm sure a hoot to drive, but not the kind of car you can or would drive to work on a nice day or jump in and drive to the lake on a beautiful summer day for the weekend.

I will take my 911 and drive it, something I think you would do alot less of with a Ferrari or Lambo.

... 10 months for a part that seldom breaks or doesn't cripple the car is reasonable for an exotic IMO.

... $20,000 service? What did they do for $20k? What would it cost to do the same DIY? How much of that $20k was repairing stuff that had been "deffered"?

... The Boosted Lambo? Maybe the guy that owns it should replace the battery, have his alternator rebuilt and renew the drive belt. Also.. he could install a kill switch to isolate the battery when he's not driving it.

[Schumi]

Some of you have touched on the core reasoning in my mind here- the new car vs. old supercar deal.

I'm going to pick a random new sporty car here- the G37 coupe.
A new, well optioned Infinity G37 will cost me more than the initial price of a Ferrari 348. Yes, it has a warranty, but let's not look into service at the moment- let's just judge the car and what it does for me-

The G37 has a lot of new, fancy gizmos like bluetooth-sync with phone probably, and Ipod connection, etc etc. I don't have a bluetooth phone or an ipod. My requirements for a vehicle are 3 pedals, a gearshift, a seat, a tachometer, and a steering wheel. So cool new options are pointless to a buyer like me- anything after 1985 with power locks and windows is good enough for me.

Speed? Both will do 0-60 in slightly over 5 seconds. The Ferrari will obviously do it with God's soundtrack.

And resale? in 5 years, the Ferrari will be worth probably nearly exactly what I pay for it. The G37, less than half.

So even though the G37 has a warranty, you pay for it in MASSIVE depreciation.


I would argue that, over a 5 year period, a $35,000 G37 and a $35,000 Ferrari, driven for 5,000 miles per year for those 5 years, and then sold at the end- would wind up being nearly even in the amount spent. The G37 will lose half it's value, being worth no more than 17.5K when sold (or less) - so you lose 17.5K. The Ferrari, if taken car of, will cost about that same amount in service - 17.5K for 5 years- or $3500 a year (DIY some, but not all the time). And you can turn around and sell it for nearly what you paid for it, maybe a bit less due to the increased mileage.



That's my logic. It was the same logic behind buying my Boxster S.

[enzo1]

the price on Caymans are getting interesting....

[sc_rufctr]

Very logical analysis... Just go for it. Take your time finding the "right" car and you should do fine. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Schumi

Some of you have touched on the core reasoning in my mind here- the new car vs. old supercar deal.

I'm going to pick a random new sporty car here- the G37 coupe.
A new, well optioned Infinity G37 will cost me more than the initial price of a Ferrari 348. Yes, it has a warranty, but let's not look into service at the moment- let's just judge the car and what it does for me-

The G37 has a lot of new, fancy gizmos like bluetooth-sync with phone probably, and Ipod connection, etc etc. I don't have a bluetooth phone or an ipod. My requirements for a vehicle are 3 pedals, a gearshift, a seat, a tachometer, and a steering wheel. So cool new options are pointless to a buyer like me- anything after 1985 with power locks and windows is good enough for me.

Speed? Both will do 0-60 in slightly over 5 seconds. The Ferrari will obviously do it with God's soundtrack.

And resale? in 5 years, the Ferrari will be worth probably nearly exactly what I pay for it. The G37, less than half.

So even though the G37 has a warranty, you pay for it in MASSIVE depreciation.


I would argue that, over a 5 year period, a $35,000 G37 and a $35,000 Ferrari, driven for 5,000 miles per year for those 5 years, and then sold at the end- would wind up being nearly even in the amount spent. The G37 will lose half it's value, being worth no more than 17.5K when sold (or less) - so you lose 17.5K. The Ferrari, if taken car of, will cost about that same amount in service - 17.5K for 5 years- or $3500 a year (DIY some, but not all the time). And you can turn around and sell it for nearly what you paid for it, maybe a bit less due to the increased mileage.



That's my logic. It was the same logic behind buying my Boxster S.

[asterix031]

Originally Posted by Schumi

Some of you have touched on the core reasoning in my mind here- the new car vs. old supercar deal.

That's my logic. It was the same logic behind buying my Boxster S.

I'm all for the same logic.

It seems to me the trick for you will be finding a well sorted 348 for the right price. If you do, the running costs will be within your accepted limits (I am guessing from comments) and you'll have a great supercar to drive. If not, the mechanic/repair shop will become well acquainted with your bank manager while you drive a backup car every other month.

A good 348 is possible (though some argue if its probable), and if you have the Ferrari bug good luck in finding one

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

... 10 months for a part that seldom breaks or doesn't cripple the car is reasonable for an exotic IMO.

... $20,000 service? What did they do for $20k? What would it cost to do the same DIY? How much of that $20k was repairing stuff that had been "deffered"?

The 355 is considered by most to be the most expensive of all the Ferrari V8s in history to maintain/fix.

Both for normal maintenance (they have a 5 valve engine, need engine out service, etc) and for "problems" (they melt headers, which are expensive to replace, have ECU and a bunch of other mechanical and cosmetic issues).

A 355 needing a service, the header fix, and a few deferred maintenance/repair stuff could easily get to $20K to bring up to snuff at a dealer or top independent.

[porsche4life]

Mike, when you pass through OK you need to stop in Tulsa and have a talk with JR... He knows his fcars.....

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Schumi

I would argue that, over a 5 year period, a $35,000 G37 and a $35,000 Ferrari, driven for 5,000 miles per year for those 5 years, and then sold at the end- would wind up being nearly even in the amount spent. The G37 will lose half it's value, being worth no more than 17.5K when sold (or less) - so you lose 17.5K. The Ferrari, if taken car of, will cost about that same amount in service - 17.5K for 5 years- or $3500 a year (DIY some, but not all the time). And you can turn around and sell it for nearly what you paid for it, maybe a bit less due to the increased mileage.



That's my logic. It was the same logic behind buying my Boxster S.

Maybe. But one thing to consider is that most used Ferrari V8 buyers are weirdos about things like miles. Every time the car turns a decade in miles, it drops in value.

If you hit 50,000 miles, you are going to lose at least 75% of potential Ferrari buyers. The car will be considered "high miles" by the Ferrari crowd, and will be viewed as being largely worn out. If you hit 75K miles, the car will be all but unsellable.

I'm not saying that makes sense, but it's just the way it is.