Senna

[Doug E]

Thanks for the links to those articles Sherwood, fascinating level of detail.

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by dyusem

...the filmmaker will be attending and discussing the film afterwards at today's 4:15pm screening at the Rafael Theater in San Rafael...hope to see ya there!

Oh Cr@p, wish I saw this earlier!!

[doug_porsche]

Senna movie in Denver end of the week.
The Esquire is at the corner of 6th Avenue and Downing Street.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by doug_porsche

Senna movie in Denver end of the week.
The Esquire is at the corner of 6th Avenue and Downing Street.

A bunch of us (PBC-Thanks Mark H.) are meeting at the Esquire at 11:30 AM on Sunday for the noon showing.

[esample]

For everyone in central Florida, the movie opens Friday, Sept. 23 at the Enzian Theatre in Maitland and Monday, Sept. 26 at the Tampa Theatre.

[Deschodt]

Probably not the most popular place to post this, but that's not quite how I recall Senna...
Super talented, yes, probably a nice guy off the track too, A God in Japan, but also absolutely ruthless and obsessed with beating Prost at a level that bordered on insanity. He patented the chop move, admitted to taking Prost off on purpose (years later) at suzuka - these days that'd get you a season ban, Schumi got nothing on him in terms of dicey moves... Scarier was that he sometimes used his faith to risk stuff that was really dangerous... I've followed F1 for 30+ years, read countless interviews from very well respected F1 journalists, such as Nigel Roebuck, and you hear all of the above time and again...

But he died, and so now he's a bit of a saint. At the time, [apologies]I thought he was a dick[/apologies]... Super talented, mind you... I've mellowed on my opinion, the movie certainly helps, but it's very one sided, as one expects of a movie called "Senna".

On the flip side, Balestre was a buffoon, Prost wasn't snow white either, but I think he was portrayed unfairly in the movie - When he quit Senna lost all references. Told Prost he missed him... No denying the guy was super talented, but maybe a bit too driven for my tastes. Flame on...

[Embraer]

^---said what i was thinking

[emcon5]

Knowing the context makes driving into Prost at Suzuka seem like a completely reasonable thing to do......

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by emcon5

Knowing the context makes driving into Prost at Suzuka seem like a completely reasonable thing to do......

Exactly. And if you choose to take someone out, first corner, lots of runoff is the safest place to do it. Some have apparently forgot the history between those two preceeding that incident, including that specific track.

[doug_porsche]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Probably not the most popular place to post this, but that's not quite how I recall Senna...
Super talented, yes, probably a nice guy off the track too, A God in Japan, but also absolutely ruthless and obsessed with beating Prost at a level that bordered on insanity. He patented the chop move, admitted to taking Prost off on purpose (years later) at suzuka - these days that'd get you a season ban, Schumi got nothing on him in terms of dicey moves... Scarier was that he sometimes used his faith to risk stuff that was really dangerous... I've followed F1 for 30+ years, read countless interviews from very well respected F1 journalists, such as Nigel Roebuck, and you hear all of the above time and again...

But he died, and so now he's a bit of a saint. At the time, [apologies]I thought he was a dick[/apologies]... Super talented, mind you... I've mellowed on my opinion, the movie certainly helps, but it's very one sided, as one expects of a movie called "Senna".

On the flip side, Balestre was a buffoon, Prost wasn't snow white either, but I think he was portrayed unfairly in the movie - When he quit Senna lost all references. Told Prost he missed him... No denying the guy was super talented, but maybe a bit too driven for my tastes. Flame on...

Jane you Ignorant slut - YouTube

Oh, wait. Sorry, you are actually correct.

My big disappointment in Senna was that he could not turn off being competitive.

His interview with Jackie Stewart seems to be how he lived his life.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by doug_porsche

My big disappointment in Senna was that he could not turn off being competitive.

^
Yup, that's a very good summary.

As for causing an accident seeming "reasonnable" in context, I respectfully disagree... I do understand he felt cheated the year before, you decide the validity of that (the push rule is still in effect by the way), but IMO, NOTHING justifies taking out a competitor on purpose, especially in open wheel racing and at F1 speeds. And if you really think it was totally safe because it was a braking zone, I look forward to never sharing a track with you ;-) you can still flip a car at low speeds in open wheels... Most of all, it shows weakness. We're talking one of the greatest of all time here, he could have passed Prost later in the race and beat him fair and square. That puts Senna in the same bucket as Schumacher to me, super talented but questionable ethics. I still put Clark at the top.

That's just me, I prefer the beating to happen on track... I'm pretty happy Sam Stosur kicked Serena's butt fair and square in the final of the US open, even though I would have liked to see Serana excluded from the event on the spot by the referee, to set the example. People behave like punks now and then...

But anyway, Senna was Senna, awesome driver, flawed human being, nothing new. Just pointing out amid the man-love gush fest that the movie is rather one-sided (understandably, of course), and I wish they would have shown Prost in a more accurate light. After all unlike Schumi who feared competition, Prost told Dennis to take senna into the team, he never pulled any questionable moves on track, and if Senna's family asked him to be a pall-bearer at the funeral, well...

[RKC]

I take your points about Senna's competitiveness, ruthlessness, etc. But auto racing is one of Hemingway's three blood sports - an endeavor where you are exposed in such a way that losing your life is a very real risk. It isn't a polite gentleman's game like golf or polo or tennis.

Those who cling to rules too closely or pooh-pooh aggressiveness are perhaps really only trying to fool themselves that it's a game like any other. Frankly, that attempt at self-delusion seems more nuts to me than Senna's driving and attitude.

A saintly/slanted film? Yes. But not really wrong or inaccurate in the largest sense....

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by RKC

It isn't a polite gentleman's game like golf or polo or tennis.Those who cling to rules too closely or pooh-pooh aggressiveness are perhaps really only trying to fool themselves that it's a game like any other. Frankly, that attempt at self-delusion seems more nuts to me than Senna's driving and attitude.

A saintly/slanted film? Yes. But not really wrong or inaccurate in the largest sense....

We're not far apart ;-) I value agressiveness, in fact I kinda like Hamilton's style these days even though I'm not a fan of his, also didn't mind Alonso's move on Vettel last week at Monza, loved Webber's move on Alonso at Spa.

But I draw the line at taking an opponent out willfully in open wheel cars. And if I read in interviews that the other driver was having an out of body experience while driving the car and attributes that to his beliefs, I'd make a mental note to stay the F away from him on track ;-)

Me, I was an Alesi fan for years, so there goes my credibility ;-)

[RKC]

Pushing Prost off the track was clearly wrong. I thought that then - and still think it now after seeing the movie which seemed to make clear Senna's point of view.

Yet my real problem is that if I were in Senna's shoes, I could see myself doing the wrong thing at that moment anyway because of the other wrongs which surrounded the whole situation. And I'm not sure what that means, or how to square it with morality.

But then, I was a Senna fan....and like Hamilton too

[911pcars]

Prost closes the door on Senna, Suzuka, 1989. Thereafter, F1 prez, Balestre DQ's Senna for continuing from the runoff road instead of backing up and continuing:


Senna/Prost, Suzuka, 1990. Some say this is the payback event. Others, including Senna, claim there was a gap to fight for:


Steward/Senna interview alluding to the above collisions:


All in the film. Arrive at your own conclusions.

Sherwood

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by RKC

if I were in Senna's shoes, I could see myself doing the wrong thing at that moment anyway because of the other wrongs which surrounded the whole situation.

That was my point with he "completely reasonable". From Senna's viewpoint, Balestre was going to screw him. Winning on track would have been preferable, and he had up to that point. If the ref is crooked, he can't screw you if you screw him first.

Not saying it was right, just saying given the circumstances, I understand.

[doug_porsche]

by his own admission Senna was not good at politics.

He knew that if he got past Prost, he would win the race and the championship.

If Prost wrecked him, the precedents had been set from last year by Prost, and Senna would win the championship (and give the establishment the finger along the way).

It was pretty much a Win/Win for Senna.

The way he wanted to win? no.
Wrong? Nope, they proved that the year before.

If there were no politics the year before, as he had been told, then their must only be one set of rules, and by last years example the rules say....

[jyl]

I finally saw this movie. Loved seeing the cars, drivers and tracks from that era. Interesting the see the mix of high nose and low nose cars in the early 1990s.

I didn't take the "Senna good, Prost bad" stuff too seriously. Of course the dead man is going too be canonized. I recall there were two sides to that rivalry, back when it was actually going on.

There is another F1 documentary that is spectacular - actually better in my opinion - but I've only seen it once on cable, about Jackie Stewart, called "The Flying Scot". I recommend it highly if you can find it.

[dyhunter]

FYI- Pelicans in Northern Michigan

Senna will be playing at the Sate Theater in Traverse City, Thursday December 15th @ 12:30 pm.

I plan on going. Anyone else?

[jtfreels]

Supposedly the movie is available to rent from iTunes starting today.

I've not looked yet to confirm.

So I just looked, and yeah it is for $4.99