M3 vs 330i

[Radioactive]

Thinking out loud about getting an extra car for a DD.

What are the pros & cons of these...

97-98 BMW M3 4DR Auto
vs
02 BMW 330i 4DR Auto

mileage would be about 125K

don't need one, shouldn't get one, but just asking

Would try to do most wrenching on it myself.

[Rick Lee]

I had an '03 330i sedan. Super car and easy to wrench on. I'd be a little concerned about that mileage unless you knew certain things had been done at the appropriate intervals.

[VincentVega]

I'm looking at the same cars. The e36 is very simple to keep, only gripe might be insurance and a little bump in some parts prices. The e46 has very similar performance and is quieter but is more complex. Older m3 are pretty cheap and get abused a lot, make sure you check it out carefully.

[klaus]

Con of both cars, there are tons of plastic bit in the engine bay, and over time the heat of the engine cooks the plastic and when you go into replace one thing you'll end of breaking 5 of things in the process. This isn't a BMW specific issue, but after spending time working on the e28 / e30 generation of cars, I was more than a little annoyed the first time I went into the engine bay of an e36, and the same goes for the e39.

[Radioactive]

I was thinking a 4DR Auto wouldn't have been abused like a 2DR manual.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Radioactive

I was thinking a 4DR Auto wouldn't have been abused like a 2DR manual.

Calling Eric Coffey.

Actually, the irony here is that the manual cars are very easy to change the gear oil on, while the autos are not only difficult and expensive, BMW claims theirs is "lifetime" fluid. So tread carefully here. My 330i was a CPO with warranty to 100k miles. The sucky part was that, since the ATF was "lifetime", if I changed it and it messed things up, warranty coverage would be very iffy. But if I waited until after the warranty expired, it was probably too late and I'd have been better off just running it until it no longer ran. I change the gear oil in my 993 every two yrs. because it's cheap and easy, relatively speaking. Not so on those auto/tiptronic Bimmers. The ATF is something like $17 per qt. from the dealer.

[porsche4life]

My dad just went through the same debate last summer. Except he was looking at the 330 ZHP cars...

We ended up with an E36 M. They are truly wonderful cars if you get a good one...

[Tobra]

They sold M3s with slushboxes?

[porsche4life]

Yes, how dumb is that?

Originally Posted by Tobra

They sold M3s with slushboxes?

Yes - and they are great as dailys. Bought mine last year with 60K. It had pretty much sat in a garage for last ten years. Lot's of car for the buck.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Calling Eric Coffey.

Actually, the irony here is that the manual cars are very easy to change the gear oil on, while the autos are not only difficult and expensive, BMW claims theirs is "lifetime" fluid. So tread carefully here. My 330i was a CPO with warranty to 100k miles. The sucky part was that, since the ATF was "lifetime", if I changed it and it messed things up, warranty coverage would be very iffy. But if I waited until after the warranty expired, it was probably too late and I'd have been better off just running it until it no longer ran. I change the gear oil in my 993 every two yrs. because it's cheap and easy, relatively speaking. Not so on those auto/tiptronic Bimmers. The ATF is something like $17 per qt. from the dealer.

hmmm..... I have NEVER changed the manual trans oil in any of the 15 or so stick shift cars I have owned over the last 28 years (including 4 high mileage Porsches and two high mileage BMW's one of which now has accumulated nearly 320,000 miles). Same goes for rear end oil where applicable. Of those 15 stick shifts, only 3 ever required replacement of the clutch.

I did change the ATF in my POS Audi auto though only because the trans cooler sprung a leak.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

hmmm..... I have NEVER changed the manual trans oil in any of the 15 or so stick shift cars I have owned over the last 28 years (including 4 high mileage Porsches and two high mileage BMW's one of which now has accumulated nearly 320,000 miles). Same goes for rear end oil where applicable. Of those 15 stick shifts, only 3 ever required replacement of the clutch.

I did change the ATF in my POS Audi auto though only because the trans cooler sprung a leak.

Not sure what tranny fluid has to do with clutch life unless you get a leak that contaminates the clutch. I got 232k miles on the first clutch on my old E30. But they don't build them that way anymore. I'm not saying the car won't last a looooonngg time without regular tranny fluid changes. But if it was something I planned on keeping for a while and was not going to be in warranty, I'd want it maintained properly before I got my hands on it.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Not sure what tranny fluid has to do with clutch life unless you get a leak that contaminates the clutch. I got 232k miles on the first clutch on my old E30. But they don't build them that way anymore. I'm not saying the car won't last a looooonngg time without regular tranny fluid changes. But if it was something I planned on keeping for a while and was not going to be in warranty, I'd want it maintained properly before I got my hands on it.

By mentioning the clutch, I was simply trying to point out that high mileage stick shift cars are a safer bet IMO than auto trans high mileage modern euro cars.... I can do a clutch on most cars for under $500 while I shudder to think what a replacement BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Porsche auto trans would cost.

As far as the manual trans oil changes go.... While relatively inexpensive to do, my personal experience has proven it is not necessary.

My E36 325i went 288k before the throwout bearing siezed up and started squealing at which point I put a new clutch in. Suprisingly the original clutch friction disk still had plenty of life left when comparing the thickness to what the Bentley book stated as the wear limit.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

As far as the manual trans oil changes go.... While relatively inexpensive to do, it is not necessary.

Tim- I've seen failures (transmission, transfer case, and differentials) from condensation diluting/ruining the fluid in climates with humidity and temperature extremes. The detergents can also break down or oxidize with age. Fluids can even turn acidic. Plus modern synthetic fluids are superior. So why would you recommend skipping it?

[VincentVega]

No good reason other than to leave it alone if it works. Sure, it doesnt add up but how many times do you hear about some one changing high mileage fluid and opening the can of worms?

[fastfredracing]

Hey, Mark, is that Techno Violet? We also have a 97 M3 coupe in Techno. I would also go for the e 36. Lot less bells and whistles to go wrong, and real friendly to work on. Ours has been pretty good to us, has about 120k on it, just rebuilt all the front suspension ( had a couple of bad ball joints ) but I did it all while I was in there. Hauls arse, and still has manners. Would probably smoke my old set up SC around the cones. The prices are way down on these, but as stated earlier, be wary , a lot of them have been hammered to death.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Tim- I've seen failures (transmission, transfer case, and differentials) from condensation diluting/ruining the fluid in climates with humidity and temperature extremes. The detergents can also break down or oxidize with age. Fluids can even turn acidic. Plus modern synthetic fluids are superior. So why would you recommend skipping it?

Because I have NEVER had a problem EVER with a manual gear box many of which have had over 200k on them. I will say that I have receipts from the previous owner of my 911SC having the tranny rebuilt, but I think the 915 transmission is was simply a poor design that does not hold up well to the power thrown at it whether it has fresh oil or not.

I have heard of 4wd transfer cases and diffs going bad also, but I am fairly confident they are due to the nature of use of a 4x4.... not because someone failed to change the gear lube often enough. On the rare case of a car, maybe it was involved in a flood and took on water through the vent..... I have lived in NW Ohio my whole life and we get big weather extremes through the four seasons... NEVER had a gear oil related failure of any kind.

[porsche4life]

Dad would have bought a techno, but we found the estoril first....