Destruction or Construction…Parenting Styles

[M.D. Holloway]

We let our Son know that at beginning in this fall any grade below an 80 was not going to be acceptable. He is a freshman in high school and now is the time to begin to buckle down.

Well, he bombed his mid-term exam in biology which brought his mid-term grade down to a 79. A 79 is less than an 80 so there had to be consequences. Momma decided to take away his iPhone until the grade came up.

All well and good I guess yet I wasn’t convinced that it had any effect.
I had figured that when he entered high school that he was going to be responsible to do his homework and study and what have you, on his own. And while he would do the assignments and turn in work I wasn’t witnessing him actually study content. I figured I would lay low until the mid-semester and see if his process was working. He did well enough, mostly B’s, an A and the high C in bio. It was time to step in.

After a week sans phone I asked him if the punishment was making him want to bring up the grade. He said it really had no influence. I then asked him if taking away other things or not letting him hang with his buddies would be harsher. He told me that it wouldn’t matter much if we did that either. Then I took a different tack.

“OK big shooter, I don’t want to be a jerk. I want you to succeed. It is really in both our interests. So, what can I do to help? “

He looked at me and smiled and said “I guess just work with me every night on my homework.” Hmmmm, ok but there has to be more.

“OK, that fine but that’s just assignments. You also have to study which means reviewing content and understanding concepts and remembering stuff.
That being said, beyond doing assignments lets also take 20-30 minutes per course and you go over with me what you went over during the day. Savvy? “

He thought about it for a few seconds and said “what if you travelling?”

“Then do it with Mom. She can’t see your stuff so you will have to really talk it all through with her. She’ll be up for it.”

So instead of the World Series or the History Channel time was spent last night discussing what was covered in school earlier.
Momma was a bit unsure. She would rather rule with an iron fist as long as I was banging the table with it. The way I pitched it to her was ‘we can destruct or we can construct. It takes a bit more energy on our part to construct but the results shall be better…I hope.”

I don’t mind punishment when it makes sense but in this case I’m not sure there was a malicious intent involved with his bombing the mid-term, just a lack of skill and discipline.

What do you guys think?

[scottmandue]

I have no children so I have nothing...

But my hat is off to you for your involvement in your child's life, I have no doubt he will grow up to be a fine man.

[Rikao4]

lot's folks study..
but really just kill time..
as you go over his school day/work....
throw in your own why is that //or how come..
take history..his take/// I must memorize dates..
give him some trivia to go along with that..

Rika

[scottmandue]

Water boarding!

Sorry, had to offset my serious post with something foolish

[livi]

IMO children's and adolescents motivation rarely breeds from punishment.

[recycled sixtie]

Having a daughter who is 24 yo and is working towards a Phd program in research causes me to reflect on her younger years. I told her many years ago that it was my job to make her independent. She was not expected to do any yard work, very few chores but was expected to study. She was quite a loner and had no trouble spending hours studying in her room.

My wife and I used to turn it around and asked her to ask us questions on what she was studying. Of course we did not know as much as she did so we got her to explain what we did not know.

My daughter started working in a bake shop when she was 16 yo and volunteered before that. She knew if she wanted money she had to work for it. We have only one child. We are blessed...

Parental involvement in their children's studies is really helpful to them.

[stomachmonkey]

I dunno Mike. Tough one that I am also struggling with.

Arden is in 8th and we are really trying to get her to develop better study habits before HS cause at this rate she'll blow college in the 1st week.

She's a super smart kid, no doubt.

Here's an example, she's in Varsity Orchestra. Half way through the 1st semester she's failing. How in the hell do you fail Violin?

Every Monday she has to hand in her practice card that we parents have to sign. If it goes in on Tuesday, 10 points off, Wed, 20 points off, Thursday 50 points off, by Friday you may as well not bother because it's not worth anything.

Turns out she had not handed in one card yet. Mind you this has been the protocol for the lat 4 years so it's not like she did not know.

It gets worse, they have "advisory" basically a free period where they can do what they want, go see a teacher for tutoring / extra help in a subject etc... Guess what Arden does every day for advisory? She goes to the Orchestra room WITH her instructor and practices. We have told her if she practices during advisory then the teacher needs to sign her practice card, not us since we did not witness it.

So she is doing the work, her instructor knows she is doing the work, but she was still failing because she kept forgetting to hand in a stupid piece of paper.

Holy **** you gotta be frikkin kidding me. How absolutely stupid is that.

We grounded the snot out of her.

Guess what she forgot the last couple of weeks?

So I don't think it makes an impression. She will forget something 5 minutes after I tell her.

Told her to change the cats water and add dry food this morning.

Heard her change the water then go into the pantry for the dry, heard her open the cat food bin.

Just walked through the kitchen earlier, no dry food in the cats bowl.

[Seahawk]

It has been said many times but bears repeating: Kids don't come with owners manuals. What worked for my daughter wasn't necessarily the best way to handle my son.

I was academically lazy when I hit high school, my sisters were not (they are both, in fact, either brilliant or bumping up against it).

I was also stubborn...stubborn as only a lazy, smart kid can be.

So I needed a little attitude demolition before I got with the program, my sisters did not.

That said, if my dad had asked me if taking things away from me was effective, I would have said no as well, just like your son...but I would have been lying.

The power of the car keys got me out of my funkatude, no if and or buts about it.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by livi

IMO children's and adolescents motivation rarely breeds from punishment.

Yep. Instead of punishment, I would spend a lot of time reviewing homework and discussing test/quiz results with my son. This amped-up parental involvement isn't really punishment, even though the look on his face said otherwise. Muhahahaha!

[Scott Douglas]

When our son started high school I told him all the fooling around stopped now. I told him to buckle down and do the best that he could and it would pay off in the end. I also told him he did not have to let on to his friends how hard he was trying as it really wouldn't matter to them.
According to my wife (I admittedly wasn't very involved with his school work) he didn't do the homework very often for some of his classes nor did he turn it in as there wasn't any to turn in. This always seemed to lead to drama at the end of the semester when grades were given out. We let him deal with the out come of that on his own.
He must have listened to me early on. He graduated in the top 10 of his class and ended up with an academic scholarship to our alma mater that really helped us out.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I think it's both, kids need to learn that there are consequences for their actions (both positive and negative), but you also have to help them get there. My oldest is only 9, so we're just starting into the "real school" phase of his education. He gets rewarded for A grades and punished for C and below. We are trying to make him responsible for his school work so we don't actively do as much as we used to, but try to push him in the right direction, help him study for tests, and keep him on top of what's due. I'm big on them being independent, and now is the time to fail and learn from it.

[LeeH]

In parenting you can reward desired behavior or punish undesirable behavior. What does he get if he gets straight As or all As and Bs?

Our daughter has been in a Montessori school since pre-K. They don't believe in homework until upper grades. And even then, it was very limited. We were specifically told to never ask about homework. It was between her and the teacher.

Fast forward to this school year and she's now in a Basis School (any AZ folks wondering where to send your kids should check out the video). Basis typically has schools at the top of every list of the best high schools in the country. Her homework load went from virtually none to 2-4 hours every single night. She went from a school where things were fairly self paced to one where things are fast paced and intense.

The first couple of months were very rough, but she's finally getting in the groove of things. We're excited to see that our daughter is not only being challenged in a big way, but that she's finally gotten used to the idea that she's not going to get by on common sense alone. She's never received a grade before either. She'll be getting her first report card soon. Should be an interesting experience for her.

[Cajundaddy]

80% of success in parenting is simply showing up. Be there when they need you around to set an example and set reasonable limits. Be there for the band concerts ball games and swim meets. Be there to stand in the gap when some rotten kid is attempting to lure yours down the rabbit hole. It does require significant time and commitment but an iron fist is simply not needed in most cases. I allowed our kids to fail at something they were not suited for or didn't really apply themselves and told them "Hey everyone screws up sometimes, it's part of being human. So now what?"

Also... get control of them while you are still bigger than they are. Once they hit 15 it's too late.

[nostatic]

Public embarrassment can be a decent motivator. My son has very few rules. One of them is that Cs are unacceptable and computer goes bye-bye when that happens. The other is that as long as he lives in my house he must study an instrument. He's in his Jr year in HS so this year really counts. Last year was pretty so-so with a C or two. Over the summer I sat down and had him take a piece of paper and calculate what it takes to live in LA, and what he likely would make at various jobs with and without a degree/experience. When he realized that an entire month pay at Starbucks wouldn't even pay half the rent on our house he started to get a little wattery eyed.

Earlier this month he went to college night at school. Got fired up about UC Santa Cruz and a few art schools. I sat down with him and asked him what his plan was to get into those places. He didn't have one. So we made one with contingencies. First report card - made the honor roll for the first time. Shock.

As for the public embarrassment, he has been studying piano for 5 years or so. His teacher has recitals twice a year. Spring recital he didn't really prepare his piece. He went down in flames. He actually stopped halfway and couldn't finish. Slinked off the stage and went out to the car to further meltdown in private. Was painful to watch.

Fast forward 6 months. Fall recital went a lot better. A stumble here and there, but no meltdown. Lesson learned

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I .

She's a super smart kid, no doubt.

Here's an example, she's in Varsity Orchestra. Half way through the 1st semester she's failing. How in the hell do you fail Violin?

Turns out she had not handed in one card yet. Mind you this has been the protocol for the lat 4 years so it's not like she did not know.

So she is doing the work, her instructor knows she is doing the work, but she was still failing because she kept forgetting to hand in a stupid piece of paper.

Holy **** you gotta be frikkin kidding me. How absolutely stupid is that.

So I don't think it makes an impression. She will forget something 5 minutes after I tell her.

Told her to change the cats water and add dry food this morning.

Heard her change the water then go into the pantry for the dry, heard her open the cat food bin.

Just walked through the kitchen earlier, no dry food in the cats bowl.

^^^This was me in High School... the teachers loved me, I was a great student and knew the material.

But I sucked at doing the work/taking the tests...

Don't know if it was because I hated my dad (I did)... I was/am OCD... or ADD... or whatever... it was the 70's and they didn't send kids to shrinks back then... my dad yelled at me a lot and the school pushed me through with sucky grades...

But it didn't harm me at all... at least that is what the voices in my head are telling me...

But seriously, I would have your daughter checked out... sounds like she is smart and may have some sort of learning disability.

YMMV

[Evans, Marv]

Ask any teacher and they will tell you how important parental involvement is. Parents need to be involved on the student side and the teacher side. Plus I believe what you do depends on your kid's personality. Some respond to punishment, some respond to rewards, some respond to logical interaction with grown ups, some don't respond to anything. So parents have to be perceptive as to what approach or combination works. Even if things don't work out exactly as you would desire, just "being there" helps a lot. Kids can't always be expected to figure things out on their own without some guidance.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by nostatic

One of them is that Cs are unacceptable and computer goes bye-bye when that happens. The other is that as long as he lives in my house he must study an instrument.

The recital was well played.

I do have to share this story. My kids also had to play in instrument through HS. My son was an excellent baritone and trumpet player. He was 1st Chair B in the school orchestra and played the trumpet in the jazz band.

He came to me at the start of his junior year and wanted to stop playing. His grades were great he had lettered varsity in cross country and track as a frosh and sophomore so I think his mindset was that he may be getting a little to cool for the orchestra.

Nope.

Fast forward a year and he is interviewing for the college he ended up going to. The interviewer tells him that the most impressive thing on his application was his dedication to music, that grades and athletics, while important, aren't indicative of a "whole person", that involvement in music does.

He may have heard about it the way home

His senior year jazz concert they played:

[gacook]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

We let our Son know that at beginning in this fall any grade below an 80 was not going to be acceptable. He is a freshman in high school and now is the time to begin to buckle down.

Well, he bombed his mid-term exam in biology which brought his mid-term grade down to a 79. A 79 is less than an 80 so there had to be consequences. Momma decided to take away his iPhone until the grade came up.

All well and good I guess yet I wasn’t convinced that it had any effect.
I had figured that when he entered high school that he was going to be responsible to do his homework and study and what have you, on his own. And while he would do the assignments and turn in work I wasn’t witnessing him actually study content. I figured I would lay low until the mid-semester and see if his process was working. He did well enough, mostly B’s, an A and the high C in bio. It was time to step in.

After a week sans phone I asked him if the punishment was making him want to bring up the grade. He said it really had no influence. I then asked him if taking away other things or not letting him hang with his buddies would be harsher. He told me that it wouldn’t matter much if we did that either. Then I took a different tack.

“OK big shooter, I don’t want to be a jerk. I want you to succeed. It is really in both our interests. So, what can I do to help? “

He looked at me and smiled and said “I guess just work with me every night on my homework.” Hmmmm, ok but there has to be more.

“OK, that fine but that’s just assignments. You also have to study which means reviewing content and understanding concepts and remembering stuff.
That being said, beyond doing assignments lets also take 20-30 minutes per course and you go over with me what you went over during the day. Savvy? “

He thought about it for a few seconds and said “what if you travelling?”

“Then do it with Mom. She can’t see your stuff so you will have to really talk it all through with her. She’ll be up for it.”

So instead of the World Series or the History Channel time was spent last night discussing what was covered in school earlier.
Momma was a bit unsure. She would rather rule with an iron fist as long as I was banging the table with it. The way I pitched it to her was ‘we can destruct or we can construct. It takes a bit more energy on our part to construct but the results shall be better…I hope.”

I don’t mind punishment when it makes sense but in this case I’m not sure there was a malicious intent involved with his bombing the mid-term, just a lack of skill and discipline.

What do you guys think?

I'd say decent concept in theory...but there's going to be a drawback. Basically, with the model you've posted, you are holding your son's hand through every single one of his assignments. You think any of his future prospective employers are going to do that?

My kids do homework at a given time every day (it's the first thing they do when they walk through the door). Once they're finished, they're free to do whatever else needs their attention--fun stuff or their chores. They know I'm there if they NEED help on an assignment. If they ask me a question, they better be prepared to tell me what they've already tried and where they think they're stuck. And then I help. My help is NEVER giving them the answer; it's guiding them through the process to find the answer themselves.

I don't technically "punish" them for bad grades, but rather have a sliding scale of payment for performance. $20 per A, 10 per B, nothing for a C, -10 for a D, and -20 for an F.

My model seems to have worked well, so far. My oldest daugther (almost 13) has gotten one B, ever, and that devastated her. Next daughter (10) is a mixed bad of A's/B's, and my son (6) is currently in First grade and reading/writing/arithmetic skills are on a 3rd grade level and he gets the equivalent of straight As (they use a numbering system until 3rd grade, instead of A-F).

My stepsons, on the other hand...they had nobody in their lives pushing them to do well academically before I married their mom, and it shows. Both are intelligent, but lazy as hell. If they bring home a C average, they're lucky, and mom's happy. Irritates the hell out of me, and I've been trying to instill some form of work ethic in them, but it's not catching so far.

[M.D. Holloway]

Point. I'm not involved in his assignments. Thats his gig. What I am doing is merely acting as a paasive recip of information he is to share. Basically the way I have set it up is for him to 'teach' me what he learned today. We discuss the concepts and engage like two interested parties. Consider it a 2 person study group with him as the leader.

While he responded well to aggresive coaching when he played sports, school is a bit different prolly cuz he suffers from some pretty severe dyslexia. While he doesn't use it as an excuse, it is an explanation.

If he was caught smoking dope, stealing, setting fire to something I would come down on him like a hammer. He's not built like that. Scott has met him. He's a decent lad. I really think that he needs to be taught how to study and what works best for him.

Maybe its something he should figuer out on his own but I think if my folks took some time to teach me some good skills well who knows?

[scottmandue]

Again, I have no first hand experience (other than being a high school student three decades ago)...

However, my step daughter just started college... super great kid... never in trouble of any kind... always got A's and B's and very involved it sports (soccer/lacrosse/cross country)... her mom wanted to be involved but daughter would have none of it... home from school>lock herself in room to crank out homework>then run out of the house for sports and/or social stuff with her girlfriends.

Just sayin... don't think there is a one size fits all when it comes to raising kids.

At least that is what the voices inside my head are telling me.