Ukraine Ugly - Page 3

SilberUrS6 · 03-01-2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cairns

And you're ignoring the lessons of history.

I see. So we're engaging is low-grade ODS. And a subject change.

I just wanted to make sure it was a slippery-slope argument. But that was neatly side-stepped. Instead of answering the actual question, just ignore it and pretend like it wasn't asked at all.

If Western Europe is in danger, I wonder just WHEN it will be in danger. Georgia in 2008. Six years later, Ukraine. So, some time in 2104, we'll see Russia putting tanks on Poland's border?

So, I'll ask again - what tangible interests are at stake for us to raise taxes or put on the Infinite Visa card, never mind putting folks in danger for? I see the philosophical interests, and those are interesting. But what are the tangible interests?

SilberUrS6 · 03-01-2014, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone

How is this different than the last time when we had to draw the line at Berlin? or the time before when we drew the line at Dunkirk? If one cannot see the value in keeping Russia from rebuilding the Soviet Bloc...it has to start soemewhere. If they don't respect the Ukraine border, whey would we expect them to respect any other?

So it's merely a philosophical concern.

That's fine, I don't have any problem with that. Since you are now merely implying that the goal is domination of Europe instead of outright stating it, I will assume you're sort of wishy-washy on the suggestion that European hegemony is the desired outcome.

Of course, ignoring history and cultural attitudes is rampant in this thread. And coming from folks who keep pretending that they are taking lessons from history, that's pretty funny.

But seriously, if the allies don't care to take a stand, and the rest of Europe doesn't care to take a stand, why in the heck should we play world cop AGAIN? And with what money? I don't want to pay for drawing philosophical lines in the sand. I don't want my kids having to make credit card payments on it, either.

There are a great many practical reasons to having guarded concern. And very few tangible benefits from jumping in feet first.

sammyg2 · 03-01-2014, 10:06 AM

Russia is the top oil producing country IN THE WORLD. Saudi Arabia is second.

Russia could temporarily double the cost of international crude oil, bringing our ecomomy to it's knees in a way that previously only Carter could.

Plus i believe they still have a bunch o'them nukey things laying around.

nynor · 03-01-2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Russia is the top oil producing country IN THE WORLD. Saudi Arabia is second.

Russia could temporarily double the cost of international crude oil, bringing our ecomomy to it's knees in a way that previously only Carter could.

Plus i believe they still have a bunch o'them nukey things laying around.

nah.... oblamer has an energy plan and he talked putin into a peace with ukraine, along with dismantling russia's nukes.

SilberUrS6 · 03-01-2014, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Russia is the top oil producing country IN THE WORLD. Saudi Arabia is second.

Russia could temporarily double the cost of international crude oil, bringing our ecomomy to it's knees in a way that previously only Carter could.

Plus i believe they still have a bunch o'them nukey things laying around.

LOL.

Now there are claims that somehow Russia will start lobbing NUKES around? Based on what? This is pure fantasy.

And you might want to think carefully about the petroleum markets and production. It's not as clear cut as you seem to be implying.

And have we found, yet, any tangible benefits for physically involving ourselves in the Ukraine? Any? Anything other than vague and inapt historical references and philosophical positioning?

Seahawk · 03-01-2014, 10:29 AM

Ukraine will stay Russian because that is where the significant warm water ports are.

There is nothing we can or should do about it. The best thing for this administration to do at this point is recognize we have severely limited options while Putin has all the motivation and will power, plus troops, a capable Navy, and air defenses: Then keep quiet, draw zero lines.

No other country believes this administration anyway, why lose yet more stature.

There is, let me repeat, short of missiles, either T-Hawks or conventional air launched weapons, no conventional warfare options.

For the UAS fans, the Predator is a grape in the air, easy pickings. No indictment on this administration: It just isn't our fight for all the right logistical, Geo-political and command reasons.

This is a lose-lose.

nynor · 03-01-2014, 10:34 AM

+1, seahawk. we need to stay out of it and our POtuS needs to shut his pie-hole. i am betting that he can't, even if he wanted to. that skill is simply one that oblamer does not have.

SilberUrS6 · 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Ukraine will stay Russian because that is where the significant warm water ports are.

There is nothing we can or should do about it. The best thing for this administration to do at this point is recognize we have severely limited options while Putin has all the motivation and will power, plus troops, a capable Navy, and air defenses: Then keep quiet, draw zero lines.

No other country believes this administration anyway, why lose yet more stature.

There is, let me repeat, short of missiles, either T-Hawks or conventional air launched weapons, no conventional warfare options.

For the UAS fans, the Predator is a grape in the air, easy pickings. No indictment on this administration: It just isn't our fight for all the right logistical, Geo-political and command reasons.

This is a lose-lose.

This is a clear-headed picture of the tactical situation, and part of the strategic situation. The U.S. national interests in the Ukraine are very small. Bloviating about it won't change that, nor will it make the case that this is just a stepping stone on the way to total European hegemony. Even if there were strong U.S. interests there, your analysis of the tactical situation would give anyone with any passing knowledge of force projection pause about how to accomplish any sort of military goals. That's aside from any repercussions of having done so.

Gobbling up Ukraine before it becomes an EU member state is smart. The mob forced that hand - Putin had it all under control behind the scenes, until the population decided it didn't like his hand up their president's backside. Well, if you can't get what you want by slick moves, brute force works, too.

scottbombedout · 03-01-2014, 10:55 AM

Perhaps Putin wants to help protect the majority ethnic Russian population in the Crimea.

SilberUrS6 · 03-01-2014, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbombedout

Perhaps Putin wants to help protect the majority ethnic Russian population in the Crimea.

My guess is strategic location.

Crimea is pretext.

cairns · 11:03 AM

Quote:

And have we found, yet, any tangible benefits for physically involving ourselves in the Ukraine? Any? Anything other than vague and inapt historical references and philosophical positioning?

Speaking of bloviating.....

Who on this thread advocated physically involving ourselves in the Ukraine? I sure didn't and I sure don't. There are plenty of things we can do other than physical. Obviously you'd rather stand by and do nothing. Sorry I don't share that sentiment.

Maybe I should. We are, after all, a long from the country, that would 'bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty".

We now worry about getting free stuff and if the neighbor's house is burning down? F-em. It's none of my business. I'm not even gonna call the Fire Department.

SilberUrS6 · 03-01-2014, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cairns

Who on this thread advocated physically involving ourselves in the Ukraine? I sure didn't and I sure don't. There are plenty of things we can do other than physical. But obviously you'd rather stand by and do nothing.

I guess all those pointed historical references were really just vague, in-apt historical references, right? I mean, when folks start throwing around words like "appeasement", they really aren't advocating for the same kind of action that would have been historically significant at that time, right?

[eye roll]

Then trot out the "would rather do nothing" strawman and knock it down!

Well-done.

LOL.

cairns · 03-01-2014, 11:14 AM

So what would you advocate doing? It sure sounded like nothing to me.

nynor · 03-01-2014, 11:14 AM

well, i'll come out and say it: we should do NOTHING. let europe deal with it.

scottbombedout · 03-01-2014, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nynor

well, i'll come out and say it: we should do NOTHING. let europe deal with it.

I'll come out and say it. Europe should do nothing. What has Putin ever done to me?

This is all down to the EU courting the Ukraine. For what? So we can pour more money from the maxed out credit card into it. No thanks.

nynor · 03-01-2014, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbombedout

I'll come out and say it. Europe should do nothing. What has Putin ever done to me?

This is all down to the EU courting the Ukraine. For what? So we can pour more money from the maxed out credit card into it. No thanks.

all righty then. and agreed.