Student loan debt

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

Back to my earlier point though, I don't see many job ads for a mathematician...

Yep, math is overrated.

[JD159]

How much math? Looking at entry requirements, and degree requirements, most require introductory level mathematics. From then on, math catered to the specifics of the program and field itself.

My view, the Arts and Science programs at a university are THE BEST programs. Except they only allow 25 students, and usually only exceptional students. This program studies everything, but has very very high expectations. Most of the students are exceptional.

What they should do, is make that a separate program, and still offer an Arts and Science degree, which teaches, as you say, the advanced skills that really dictate the value of a degree, while still incorporating features from the arts programs.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

How much math? Looking at entry requirements, and degree requirements, most require introductory level mathematics. From then on, math catered to the specifics of the program and field itself.

to get your phil degree, how much math did it require? College level mathematics?

Now compare it to Chem, Finance or an Engineering major....

You tell me- which one did the real work?

rjp

[RANDY P]

I looked into the requirements for an econ or business degree at my university. A credit in my highschool calc course, and the first year math. I can go my local highschool and take a nightclass to get that credit, and do the university math course required for a business degree. That is the most advanced calculus required for that degree. My friends are business school grads.

what kind of Econ degree only requires one year of college math? -

HUH?

[JD159]

lmao who did the real work. My business friend's can't put together a refutation to an argument or position the way I can. Nor can they translate idea's onto paper the way I can. That was clear when we all took a "bird" arts course together. They bombed the writing portion of it. But they can do the math work I cannot, for now. Its a shame you have no idea the work it takes in finishing a philosophy degree. You would read one of the positions and put the paper down because it doesn't make sense, say its pointless and go back to doing a math problem that has a definitive answer.

Required:
Econ 1B03 and 1BB3. Math 1K03 (if no Grade 12 Advanced
Functions).

Recommended:
Math 1F03 or 1M03. Stat 1L03 (if no Grade 12 Data Management or OAC Finite Math)
6 Units from Faculty of Humanities
or Department of Religious Studies

McMaster university. Degroote school of business. BTW I have advanced functions. I only need to take the social sciences cross listed stats course, and get my feet wet with calculus. I've looked into this. It was not at all a big deal in terms of math. I was very close to doing this, I even took micro and macro and did well. I just don't want to be spending more time getting another undergrad, when I can either work or get something more advanced.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

lmao who did the real work. My business friend's can't put together a refutation to an argument or position the way I can. Nor can they translate idea's onto paper the way I can. That was clear when we all took a "bird" arts course together. They bombed the writing portion of it. But they can do the math work I cannot, for now. Its a shame you have no idea the work it takes in finishing a philosophy degree. You would read one of the positions and put the paper down because it doesn't make sense, say its pointless and go back to doing a math problem that has a definitive answer.

Sorry Bud, I didn't make the rules, I just live by them. You can always start your own business, no prerequisite for that....

rjp

PS I have no idea what those math classes you are posting are....1f03 what is that? is this the admissions requirements or grad requirements? I see "stat" which isn't fun..but, otherwise...

[Hugh R]

Originally Posted by Bugsinrugs

7% is loans sharking in my mind. 4-5% would still be a great profit for the lender and would make it more manageable for the borrowers.

You have to remember he pays nothing back on the loan until six months after graduation, so the lender gets nothing for several years.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

You have to remember he pays nothing back on the loan until six months after graduation, so the lender gets nothing for several years.

7% is what's required to get investors to bite. Had they been such a safe investment they'd be in the 4% range.

It's not the same as a house- house can be insured, and can be repo'd, and it can't shoot itself in the head, die of alcoholism, or get arrested for murder.

[dennis in se pa]

We have college graduates on here (possibly post graduates) who don't know the difference between a plural "friends" and a possessive "friend's". I am not meaning to be mean or picky, but......what the heck?

[JD159]

1fo3 is the university level intro advanced functions course. That is for those who do not have the credit from highschool.

Look I don't disagree that math is an invaluable skill. I really want to get into math at some point, because it didn't sink in while I was still in highschool. The point I am trying to get across here is that at an undergrad level, Philosophy and other arts degrees, aside from a few particular undergrad degrees, are largely the same, and should be considered as such.

Dennis, you caught me. Typing to fast and getting a little excited. I think its the playoff hockey...

[Bugsinrugs]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

7% is what's required to get investors to bite. Had they been such a safe investment they'd be in the 4% range.

It's not the same as a house- house can be insured, and can be repo'd, and it can't shoot itself in the head, die of alcoholism, or get arrested for murder.

It is my understanding that student loans are guaranteed by the federal government. If the person defaults the lender gets their monies from the Feds. Also, they can still pursue the borrower.

[nostatic]

Interesting viewpoints here, as always. A few comments.

Math is a tool just like anything else. It really depends on what you're going to do. I could argue that everyone should understand algebra. I could also argue that everyone should have studied art and music. Each of those end up being useful for different things. Society has largely determined that the direct value of business/math/science is higher, but frankly the indirect value of art/music is totally under-valued. STEM is a misguided quest. STEAM is what is necessary to have an innovative workforce.

When I was an undergrad I switched from a music major to chemistry. Mostly because I was nervous about the prospect of making a living from music, and knew I liked and could make a living teaching chemistry. No, I certainly wouldn't get rich teaching but that has never been a driver in my family or my life. In retrospect it was the right and the wrong choice. I no doubt make much more now than I likely would be with the music degree. That said, I still regret not double majoring and perhaps taking a few more artistic risks earlier on.

At some point I decided that I liked the prospect of teaching at university level better than K-12, and to do that you need a phd. I also had the option of going to med school. Almost all of the best students in the chemistry department (which was small, about 10 grads/year) went to med school. I remember bringing the topic up with my advisor - my organic prof and research mentor. I loved her - she was one tough woman. Interned in Manzanita as a teen (Japanese, though born in SF), earned her phd at Harvard in the 50's, and was a no-BS person. I remember bringing up med school and she peered over her hornrimmed glasses and said in a low growl, "you're not going to waste your talent in medicine." (apologies to our resident docs ) I then said something about being worried about paying back loans, to which she replied with the words that changed my life - "they pay you to go to grad school in the science."

Pay me to go to school? Sign me up!

As for "useless degrees," frankly MBAs are beginning to get that way. Seems that everyone wants to be in the business of making money instead of making things. And at some point that is unsustainable.

As for teaching, I likely will end up going back to the classroom in some number of years as that is still my first love. But I need to make enough money to cover my son's college first...

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by nostatic

As for "useless degrees," frankly MBAs are beginning to get that way. Seems that everyone wants to be in the business of making money instead of making things. And at some point that is unsustainable.

I believe this is a very true assertion and that schools have ramped up and watered down their MBA production to satisfy the demand. They may have learned this from schools of law and now a fella can't swing a dead cat without hitting some MBA graduate. While I only know a few of them...pffft. They don't seem much more capable of critical thinking than the hoards of AA RNs running around...but they do like meetings a LOT more.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by JD159

1fo3 is the university level intro advanced functions course. That is for those who do not have the credit from highschool.

Look I don't disagree that math is an invaluable skill. I really want to get into math at some point, because it didn't sink in while I was still in highschool. The point I am trying to get across here is that at an undergrad level, Philosophy and other arts degrees, aside from a few particular undergrad degrees, are largely the same, and should be considered as such.

Dennis, you caught me. Typing to fast and getting a little excited. I think its the playoff hockey...

Why would you wait until freshman math to start taking calculus? That will cost thousands for that one course and you'll be in an auditorium with 400 others and a few TAs who barely speak English. If you just want to learn calculus, you can do some cheap adult ed course at your local high school at night and probably for $200 or less. You might have 10 people in the class and so the teacher can really give you some personal attention. I was certain I did not want to end up in a freshman math class in college, so I did whatever it took to place out before I started and the AP credit I got for doing it in high school sufficed.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by JD159

Back to my earlier point though, I don't see many job ads for a mathematician...

The value of a degree should not depend on math unless the field itself values math as a skill.

My degree is in mathematics, I work in the IT industry.

[cgarr]

I see it all the time: Just because you are educated doesn't always make you smart..

[JD159]

Scott,

My point exactly. The job posting was not for a mathematician. Just like you will not find a job posting for a philosopher. Well for either of them, not likely anyway. Instead the post is for the traits, skills, experience and qualities the position requires.

Rick,

It was $10 at my local highschool, or $660 at my university! At the time, when I was considering pursuing econ. that was my options.

Like NS mentioned, I would love to add a few laters to my education, right now I only have the A in STEAM . I'm fortunate to have some opportunities ahead of me, but really wouldn't know where to start in acquiring a few of those letters, without spending another 4 years in school...

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Bugsinrugs

It is my understanding that student loans are guaranteed by the federal government. If the person defaults the lender gets their monies from the Feds. Also, they can still pursue the borrower.

yep, and it's infinitely harder to get it back, especially if the borrower refuses to work. You have to deal with the feds-- who also can be told to go to hell....

It wouldn't be pleasant, but it's not against the law to NOT pay your bills and you can't repo an education.

rjp

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Noah930

edit: Don't get me wrong. The cost of education is ridiculous today. There is little useful counseling of students regarding how loans work. And there are frequent times where I feel that the American Dream is increasingly out of reach. These are potentially very PARFy topics. But no, I don't feel that sorry for this guy regarding his student loans. Buck up.

+1

I went to a small new england liberal arts school where the cost of a 4 year education was around $120k (now up to around $200k, 12 years later) and graduated with about $40k in loans. Spent a year trying to get a startup off the ground, when that didnt work out I took my first paid job making $31k. All of my loans were paid off by the time I was 27, I never missed a payment and overpaid when I could. I was lucky enough to be employed that entire time.

I agree that the cost of education is becoming more and more insurmountable. I imagine it is hard for someone who has never lived on their own or paid their own way to know what the real world feeling would be of a $250/month vs $500/month payment if you are bringing home $2500/month... JYL had an interesting and related musing in the "Dad how much do I need to make" thread.

This being said, this dude needs to nut up. Looking at the actual numbers, he can afford to pay back his student loan. Will he take his dream vacation every year... no. Hope you enjoyed your time at college. Welcome to real life buddy.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Math is a tool just like anything else. It really depends on what you're going to do. I could argue that everyone should understand algebra. I could also argue that everyone should have studied art and music.

Math, music, art, and language require different ways of thinking. Other disciplines use these ways of thinking. I think it is important to learn how to function in all four domains. I wish when I was in school I had been forced to study and understand music and art. Math and language got me through an engineering career and helped me be successful as an entrepreneur, but I so wish I could create something just for the heck of creating it.