Student loan debt

[Noah930]

I understand your sentiment, Rick. At the same time, student debt is the one loan that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. As long as the recipient doesn't die, they're on the hook forever.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Signing up for thousands in loans without understanding the terms makes you an idiot, not a victim. If you don't understand the importance of not signing a legally binding contract until you understand it, you deserve what is coming to you. 5 minutes on Google can be very educational, it's not like these things are a secret.

As for the rest, we are supposed to feel bad for this whiner because he has a $400/mo payment making $56k and he can't buy his dream house? YGBSM! He's been laid off six times but takes zero responsibility for the fact that he didn't make the cut, he has lived in two very expensive states (CO & CA), and he's not living his dream at 36. This sort of entitled not my fault attitude is what's wrong with our country. I paid off $44k in loan debt in two years making about $52k by working overtime and buying, fixing up, and reselling cars, as well as my family living like poor people. I also moved somewhere with low cost of living and available jobs. I just can't believe this POS has the nerve to complain about how bad he has it.

Because he's a school teacher (I did not read the article) and has a degree in Econ, so he knows it all. I really hate to say this, but my experience has been the same when certain subjects come up for chit chat. Since I taught high school, part time, I have almost lost all respect for them. Yes, I am generalizing. I found 1 out of 20 school teacher, counselors, or VPs have a good head on their shoulder about money or business.

I am kinda dumb, but I never sign anything even beck in college that involve money, so why should I feel sorry for this guy? This is typically how school teachers feel about their pay. They are smarter them most out there due to the piece of paper they have hanging on their wall, so they must make more then YOU, unless you are a lic engineer or a CEO. Those that have a Master in Eductaion, F'-o-dear, they shirt don't stink. High school classroom teachers that have a Ph.D (more then likely in Education, not something significant), don't look em' in the eye when you speak to em'. Look at their shoe only and answer when spoken to. Don't get me started. This kind of crap makes me upset.

[jcommin]

My company has hired about 10 new engineering hires. They have come from mostly from in and out of State Universities and one private school. All are from middle income families. Some of these hires went to a junior college before transferring. The all have one thing in common: student loans. There payments are about the size of a high end auto payment. I have a friend who has a daughter who finished med school, has a job and her loan payment is the size of a mortgage payment.

That is a big anchor around a neck for a young person staring out. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to graduate college with loans and either not getting a job or taking "just something" to make money.

There is really something wrong here - we set up a system that convincing young people to get higher education to better themselves. High paying semi skilled factory jobs are gone forever, very few companies invest in apprenticeships - I don't see allot of options. The banking system and government appear to profit very well from this.

I'm lucky to have lived in a time where I worked part time and summers to save enough money and put myself thru school.

[onewhippedpuppy]

If he's been laid off six times, odds are he's not as good as he thinks. A good friend of mine is the principal of a large KS high school and had to recently lay off six teachers, all were for cause. But it's easy to blame the economy, budget cuts, etc.

In 2008 when we bought our current house, we went loan shopping. We went to good old Countrywide loans to see what they had to offer. On their loan options I requested to see the amortization schedule and total loan amount, the guy was shocked. His reply - "nobody ever asks for that stuff". Maybe it's callous, but buyer beware. If you are too lazy to understand the terms of a legal contract, don't expect me to feel bad when it unravels on you.

As for college, it's expensive. Either major in something that's going to unlock some great job opportunities or don't go. Take gen-ed prerequisites at a CC, go to an in-state public school, pay as much as you can as you go, and apply to every grant and scholarship possible. If you go to a private liberal arts college in a beautiful out of state locale to "find yourself", don't have the nerve to complain about it later.

[Bugsinrugs]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

How so? Where else can you get a six figure signature loan with payments deferred for several years without having to demonstrate any ability or even willingness to repay it? I think student loans should be more expensive than credit cards. At least with credit cards, before getting a huge credit line, you usually need some credit worthiness and underwriting. With student loans, you can study basket weaving and stagecoach design for as many years as you want and you'll never get turned down for more loans.

7% is loans sharking in my mind. 4-5% would still be a great profit for the lender and would make it more manageable for the borrowers.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

How so? Where else can you get a six figure signature loan with payments deferred for several years without having to demonstrate any ability or even willingness to repay it? I think student loans should be more expensive than credit cards. At least with credit cards, before getting a huge credit line, you usually need some credit worthiness and underwriting. With student loans, you can study basket weaving and stagecoach design for as many years as you want and you'll never get turned down for more loans.

This maybe true but riddle me this, why would anyone continue to do it? There are on the hook until it's paid. You can't get out of the loan. I can see your point if you could file bankruptcy and walk away from the loan.

[mattdavis11]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

As for college, it's expensive. Take gen-ed prerequisites at a CC, go to an in-state public school, pay as much as you can as you go, and apply to every grant and scholarship possible.

Bingo. I must admit that my gen-ed courses spanned a lengthy time frame, but the last two years of my undergrad education were 100% covered by academic scholarships and grants. I worked to cover living expenses. Most don't. Still debt free, always have been.

[mreid]

I agree with John70T, but there are two different issues being discussed here:

1. The foolishness of this person
2. The policy on education in this country

First, this guy is an idiot. Not once does he point out the quality of his contributions or the value he brings to his job. Instead he focuses on all the inputs - two degrees, etc. Then he blames his lack of employability on his chosen field and his association with the union (teachers unions IMO, are some of the worst).

Second, our education policy is completely out of whack. The cost of tuition in this country is obscene. None of the politicians ever focus on the fact that it has risen faster than inflation, become more bureaucratic, and added more "staff" than any business in this country. This guy is really lucky he got off with such a low debt (probably means he went to a no name school which is not helping him). Also, student loan interest should be zero to 1% over prime, indexed to w2 earnings. His rate is completely unacceptable.

He needs to stop whining and firing up the other whiners who like to blame anyone who is successful for their failures. Plus, didn't he say he was in some type of athletics? Remember those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym. Happy Easter everyone!

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

What's even funnier are the idiot liberals who support this guy and his excuses for ineptness.

Well, I'm a liberal and I think the guy is an whiney idiot. You would do yourself a favor and rethink your caricature of the liberal mind.
It is ludicrous that he has an economics degree and doesn't understand that when you take a loan you have to pay it back. His loan is $36k and he thought he was going to pay it back with payments of less than $400 a month? Absurd.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Well, I'm a liberal and I think the guy is an whiney idiot. You would do yourself a favor and rethink your caricature of the liberal mind.
It is ludicrous that he has an economics degree and doesn't understand that when you take a loan you have to pay it back. His loan is $36k and he thought he was going to pay it back with payments of less than $400 a month? Absurd.

yep. as soon as you drop the caricature of the conservative mind...

rjp

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jcommin

This maybe true but riddle me this, why would anyone continue to do it? There are on the hook until it's paid. You can't get out of the loan. I can see your point if you could file bankruptcy and walk away from the loan.

It's not like 18-21 yr. olds understand what it means to pay $400-$1000 a month for many years after they graduate. I sure didn't know what that kind of money was back then. And I had a pretty slow career start, at least earning-wise, even after finishing undergrad in 3.5 yrs. We all know people who spent many years finding themselves in undergrad, studying philosophy or English, never intending to become teachers, but also never stopping to think about the last time they saw a job ad for a philosopher or English speaker.

I don't think anyone takes out any kind of loan while thinking they'll be able to get out of it later by declaring BK if things don't go well. I just don't get why people think student loans should be anything other than risk-based. Of course, since they're all gov't.-issued or secured these days, risk and traditional underwriting are the last things taken into consideration.

Any other kind of loan is made with an interest rate based on one's ability and willingness to repay the loan. Those factors are not even remotely considered in student loan underwriting. There's no collateral, no down payment, little or no prior credit history and they can spend years trying out various courses before they declare a major and head in a direction that MIGHT someday make them marketable for a job that MIGHT pay them enough to repay those student loans.

Would you even think of lending your own money in such a situation? I sure would not. Why should the gov't.? What benefit are taxpayers getting by having trillions in unsecured student loan debt for sending kids to college for 5+ yrs., who would have been way better off going to vocational school or doing an apprenticeship for free or even a modest salary?

[RANDY P]

inability to BK hasn't stopped anyone from defaulting. I know many who just live with the consequences.....

PS if these *******s think student loans are burying them- try having KIDS. That's cash, every month.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It's not like 18-21 yr. olds understand what it means to pay $400-$1000 a month for many years after they graduate. I sure didn't know what that kind of money was back then. And I had a pretty slow career start, at least earning-wise, even after finishing undergrad in 3.5 yrs. We all know people who spent many years finding themselves in undergrad, studying philosophy or English, never intending to become teachers, but also never stopping to think about the last time they saw a job ad for a philosopher or English speaker.

Some skills gained from a Philosophy degree below. Other than just being a "philosopher". Most job ads ask for skills. You don't see job ads asking for a business person, or engineer, you seem them asking for skills . Its how you sell your education and the skills you have acquired. Not everyone goes into an art's program to "find themselves" . Clearly you haven't actually studied philosophy, and assume we all just contemplate existence all day lol...

1. Articulacy in accurately identifying underlying issues in all kinds of debate.
2. Logical thinking and presentation in the analysis and formulation of complex and controversial problems.
3. Sensitivity in interpretation of thoughts and ideas drawn from both history and current trends.
4. Clarity and rigour in the critical assessment of arguments presented in such thoughts and ideas.
5. Ability to use and criticise specialised philosophical terminology.
6. Ability to abstract, analyse and construct sound arguments and to identify logical inconsistency.
7. Ability to recognise methodological errors, rhetorical devices, unexamined conventional wisdom, unnoticed assumptions, vagueness and superficiality.
8. Ability to move between general and appropriately detailed discussion, providing examples to support or challenge a position, and distinguishing relevant and irrelevant considerations.
9. Ability to consider unfamiliar ideas and ways of thinking, and to examine presuppositions and methods critically within the discipline itself.
10. Develop the ability to reflect clearly and critically on oral and written sources, employing powers of imagination as well as analysis.
11. To remember relevant material and bring it to mind when relevant.
12. To construct convincing arguments in the evaluation of information.
13. To present, in both oral and written forms, a clear and well-structured assessment of relevant considerations.
14. Ability to comprehend and develop intricate concepts in an open ended way which involves an understanding of purpose and consequences.

Maybe if people didn't have such ignorant perceptions of certain degree's other than a degree from engineering, "business", or medical, students wouldn't be left scrambling for any sort of job to pay off student debt. It's those kind of generalizations that have negatively impacted the perceived value of many degree's.

How about a bioethicist? That is a job ad quite literally asking for an Ethical Philosopher.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

Some skills gained from a Philosophy degree below. Other than just being a "philosopher". Most job ads ask for skills. You don't see job ads asking for a business person, or engineer, you seem them asking for skills . Its how you sell your education and the skills you have acquired. Not everyone goes into an art's program to "find themselves" . Clearly you haven't actually studied philosophy, and assume we all just contemplate existence all day lol...

1. Articulacy in accurately identifying underlying issues in all kinds of debate.
2. Logical thinking and presentation in the analysis and formulation of complex and controversial problems.
3. Sensitivity in interpretation of thoughts and ideas drawn from both history and current trends.
4. Clarity and rigour in the critical assessment of arguments presented in such thoughts and ideas.
5. Ability to use and criticise specialised philosophical terminology.
6. Ability to abstract, analyse and construct sound arguments and to identify logical inconsistency.
7. Ability to recognise methodological errors, rhetorical devices, unexamined conventional wisdom, unnoticed assumptions, vagueness and superficiality.
8. Ability to move between general and appropriately detailed discussion, providing examples to support or challenge a position, and distinguishing relevant and irrelevant considerations.
9. Ability to consider unfamiliar ideas and ways of thinking, and to examine presuppositions and methods critically within the discipline itself.
10. Develop the ability to reflect clearly and critically on oral and written sources, employing powers of imagination as well as analysis.
11. To remember relevant material and bring it to mind when relevant.
12. To construct convincing arguments in the evaluation of information.
13. To present, in both oral and written forms, a clear and well-structured assessment of relevant considerations.
14. Ability to comprehend and develop intricate concepts in an open ended way which involves an understanding of purpose and consequences.

Maybe if people didn't have such ignorant perceptions of certain degree's other than a degree from engineering, "business", or medical, students wouldn't be left scrambling for any sort of job to pay off student debt. It's those kind of generalizations that have negatively impacted the perceived value of many degree's.

How about a bioethicist? That is a job ad quite literally asking for an Ethical Philosopher.

LOL that reads like any list off ANY degree- and as elaborate and deep as those traits are, are those skills? Sorry, but it doesn't work like that in the real world- try putting that list up against an MBA in Finance and see what you get...

rjp

[JD159]

I wasn't putting it up against an MBA. I'm hoping to get one. But, that is beyond an undergrad degree. To get a decent job now you need to look past just a simple undergrad. Why did you assume I'm comparing it to an MBA? Do you think I'm also comparing it to a Phd?

You made my entire point. Those are skills, just as they are traits. But all degree's have them. Undergrad degree's that is. So why lessen the value of a philosophy degree compared to an undergrad in another subject if as you say, that is a list of traits from ANY degree?

If I got an MBA in finance, with an undergrad in either philosophy or economics, what does it matter what my undergrad was in? My family doctor earned his undergrad in engineering. Doesn't make him any less qualified.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

I wasn't putting it up against an MBA. I'm hoping to get one. But, that is beyond an undergrad degree. To get a decent job now you need to look past just a simple undergrad. Why did you assume I'm comparing it to an MBA? Do you think I'm also comparing it to a Phd?

Because any undergrad these days is semi-worthless.. You practically need an MBA to get anywhere. Oh, and a philosophy or sociology degree to boot? GLWT.

rjp

EDIT- oh, and the reason why no one takes those degrees seriously in the real world, is you are not pushed to develop advanced skills. Calculus anyone? Chances are, that's not on a Philosophy major or Sociology degree checklist.

[JD159]

I looked into the requirements for an econ or business degree at my university. A credit in my highschool calc course, and the first year math. I can go my local highschool and take a nightclass to get that credit, and do the university math course required for a business degree. That is the most advanced calculus required for that degree. My friends are business school grads.

An undergrad is extremely valuable. Because without it, you can't get any sort of specialized degree beyond your undergrad. An undergrad alone, not so much. I'll agree with you. But thats another problem...

Oh, btw, in the real world, how many people are doing calculus at work? Why are you using that as support for advanced skills used in the real world? A business degree is not a math degree. In fact, very little is used through the program. I'm just not sure what your getting at with this calculus as a real world advanced skill.

[RANDY P]

Now repeat the same thing with a sociology degree or phil-

What are the math requirements for that?

EDIT- my point is, that a lot of times is what makes or breaks a good degree- math. The less you have, the less you're worth.

[JD159]

Back to my earlier point though, I don't see many job ads for a mathematician...

The value of a degree should not depend on math unless the field itself values math as a skill.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by JD159

Oh, btw, in the real world, how many people are doing calculus at work? Why are you using that as support for advanced skills used in the real world? A business degree is not a math degree. In fact, very little is used through the program. I'm just not sure what your getting at with this calculus as a real world advanced skill.

Math is a skill which gets you into high paying jobs, to avoid these types of jobless plights- STEM skills to be exact.....