Options for concealed carry

[ledhedsymbols]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Not really applicable to most here, but...

My wife carries a little Beretta Nano in one of those. I can't stand that pistol, but she loves it. After all, I'm not carrying it.

[Arizona_928]

I wore a walther ppq on a shoulder rig when I ride. Harder to conceal if you don't have a mc jacket. I was wearing it when I got thrown over the hood of a car. No accidental discharge from it being a striker fire spoon. Also paramedics and police didn't even know I had it till they took off my jacket...

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Airweight Smith is definitely under $500. People just seem to not like wheel guns for some reason.

People have this weird fantasy that they will engage multiple bad guys at 50 feet, get into extended firefights, empty their guns, do combat reloads and other Walter Mitty stuff.

Here is something I found on the reality (underlining mine):

Here's my analysis of what armed self-defense for the Private Citizen, not LEO, looks like. You decide what suits your needs best to solve this type of problem.
Private citizens reload in approximately 1/2 of one percent of shooting incidents (3/482).
If the defender fires any shots, most likely it will be 2 rounds.
The shooting distance in the vast majority of cases was slightly in excess of arm's length.
At this distances, even .22s and .25s are highly immediately lethal.
A revolver, even J-frame, is perfectly capable of dealing with almost all of the incidents. The ones which were beyond the capabilities of a five shot revolver would be best deal with by a shotgun, anyway.
For those who do not practice, a revolver is far preferable to the autoloader because of the revolver's simpler manual of arms. Eighty per cent of gunshot wounds are self-inflicted. Guns are handled many times more than they are shot and so safe gunhandling qualities are much more important characteristics than its ability to be shot accurately and reloaded quickly. Revolvers are much less likely than autoloaders to AD in the hands of novices.
The perceived need for massive quantities of ammo, reloading, and precision shooting at distance is largely a figbar of people's imaginations. There is simply no evidence to support the contention that any of those conditions occur during armed confrontation involving the Private Citizen.
The Armed Citizen - A Five Year Analysis
Executive Summary
For the period 1997 – 2001, reports of 482 incidents were examined. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included.
The majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles. The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).
Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender’s initial response was to fire until empty.
Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.
The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.
The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.
Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.
Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there are no apparent cases of drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. Immediate flight is the most common response for drivers and lookouts at the sound of gunfire.
The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, who committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) with a shotgun when they broke in his door.
Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.
The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even mouseguns displayed a significant degree of immediate lethality (30% immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.
Analysis by Claude Werner

The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings

When I carry, which is not often, I carry a 38 SPL J-frame in a IWB holster or a pocket holster. I used to carry a subcompact 45 ACP but decided it was both too heavy, too complicated, not reliable enough, and carrying a cocked/locked 1911 in a pocket holster gave me the heebie jeebies.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by jyl

People have this weird fantasy that they will engage multiple bad guys at 50 feet, get into extended firefights, empty their guns, do combat reloads and other Walter Mitty stuff.

Here is something I found on the reality (underlining mine):

Here's my analysis of what armed self-defense for the Private Citizen, not LEO, looks like. You decide what suits your needs best to solve this type of problem.
Private citizens reload in approximately 1/2 of one percent of shooting incidents (3/482).
If the defender fires any shots, most likely it will be 2 rounds.
The shooting distance in the vast majority of cases was slightly in excess of arm's length.
At this distances, even .22s and .25s are highly immediately lethal.
A revolver, even J-frame, is perfectly capable of dealing with almost all of the incidents. The ones which were beyond the capabilities of a five shot revolver would be best deal with by a shotgun, anyway.
For those who do not practice, a revolver is far preferable to the autoloader because of the revolver's simpler manual of arms. Eighty per cent of gunshot wounds are self-inflicted. Guns are handled many times more than they are shot and so safe gunhandling qualities are much more important characteristics than its ability to be shot accurately and reloaded quickly. Revolvers are much less likely than autoloaders to AD in the hands of novices.
The perceived need for massive quantities of ammo, reloading, and precision shooting at distance is largely a figbar of people's imaginations. There is simply no evidence to support the contention that any of those conditions occur during armed confrontation involving the Private Citizen.
The Armed Citizen - A Five Year Analysis
Executive Summary
For the period 1997 – 2001, reports of 482 incidents were examined. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included.
The majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles. The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).
Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender’s initial response was to fire until empty.
Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.
The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.
The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.
Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.
Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there are no apparent cases of drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. Immediate flight is the most common response for drivers and lookouts at the sound of gunfire.
The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, who committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) with a shotgun when they broke in his door.
Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.
The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even mouseguns displayed a significant degree of immediate lethality (30% immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.
Analysis by Claude Werner

The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings

When I carry, which is not often, I carry a 38 SPL J-frame in a IWB holster or a pocket holster. I used to carry a subcompact 45 ACP but decided it was both too heavy, too complicated, not reliable enough, and carrying a cocked/locked 1911 in a pocket holster gave me the heebie jeebies.

I'm in support of the 5 shot revolver. I think an LCR in .357 mag is about perfect. But I would be interested if there are any statistics on dead victims with empty firearms.

[Bill Douglas]

It makes that sissy gun on page 2 look like quite a good option.

[on2wheels52]

I agree with most of jyl's article.
But "At this distances (slightly in excess of arm's length), even .22s and .25s are highly immediately lethal."
I know quite a number of people who have been thus subjected and are still with us.
And re "The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm)...... Mouseguns (.380s and below)......" has me confused. I would have said a .380 is in the same .35 caliber family as 9mm (both .355).
Jim

[red-beard]

Funny, my favorite pistols are 1903's (aka the 1908), 1910's and 1922's in .380ACP. .380 is considered a "mouse gun", yet it was the preferred round for the 1920's Gangsters.

Plus, don't these just LOOK cool?





I keep wanting to find a couple in sorry shape, have them refinished in Robar or something similar, and have all of the internal parts nickel plated.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by theFONZ

Id guess you haven't seen both, especially at the same time. The 938 is smaller in every way, and a half-pound lighter. I carry a 938 in my pocket, no way I'd be able to do that with a Defender/New Agent/EMP/etc.

There is also Kahr's higher end all metal guns, the T-series, K-series, and MK-series. Those are very nice, albeit hard to find, and most people don't know about them. So add those to my non-1911, non-polymer carry gun list along with Sigs and CZs.

I own both a P290 and a Colt Defender.

[jyl]

I also think of a "mousegun" as .32 and lower.

Anyway - if someone just has to have a big caliber in their pocket, my Detonics stainless Combat Master 45 ACP is for sale. Limp wrists need not apply.

I agree with most of jyl's article.

But "At this distances (slightly in excess of arm's length), even .22s and .25s are highly immediately lethal."

I know quite a number of people who have been thus subjected and are still with us.

And re "The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm)...... Mouseguns (.380s and below)......" has me confused. I would have said a .380 is in the same .35 caliber family as 9mm (both .355).

Jim

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by jyl

Anyway - if someone just has to have a big caliber in their pocket, my Detonics stainless Combat Master 45 ACP is for sale. Limp wrists need not apply.

Seattle? I kind of collect 'em.

[jyl]

Portland. If interested PM me and I will tell you the good and the bad.

[surflvr911sc]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Airweight Smith is definitely under $500.

Bingo!

[jyl]

Slight tangent - it has always bothered me that semi-auto pistols are so thick. It seems that a small-caliber pistol need be no thicker than the barrel at the chamber. There is no absolute need for a slide that envelopes the barrel. There are plenty of older pistols with fixed barrels, where the cycling part of the mechanism is entirely behind the breech. With gas-delayed systems, it seems these could also handle larger calibers. A single-stack magazine in a slim grip needn't be thicker than the barrel. Alternatively, the pistol could use stripper clips, or the magazine could be the grip. I'd like to have a double-action pistol that is only as thick as a 9mm barrel, alloy and polymer for lightest weight, that holds six rounds, with no external safety, designed for practical accuracy to 20 feet. Basically it should be functionally equivalent to an alloy J-frame but thinner and even lighter.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by jyl

Slight tangent - it has always bothered me that semi-auto pistols are so thick. It seems that a small-caliber pistol need be no thicker than the barrel at the chamber. There is no absolute need for a slide that envelopes the barrel. There are plenty of older pistols with fixed barrels, where the cycling part of the mechanism is entirely behind the breech. With gas-delayed systems, it seems these could also handle larger calibers. A single-stack magazine in a slim grip needn't be thicker than the barrel. Alternatively, the pistol could use stripper clips, or the magazine could be the grip. I'd like to have a double-action pistol that is only as thick as a 9mm barrel, alloy and polymer for lightest weight, that holds six rounds, with no external safety, designed for practical accuracy to 20 feet. Basically it should be functionally equivalent to an alloy J-frame but thinner and even lighter.

I see where you're going with this - however I think what's holding something like that back are the lawyers. And $$$. Something this radical would have a limited market, and there are the development costs that would need to be recouped. Rohrbaugh and Boberg are two relatively new concepts in sub-compact 9mm spoons that you may want to look into.

[JJ 911SC]