Over service your car... why not just flush your cash down the toilet?

[EMJ]

I find the Ferrari owners’ obsession with servicing their cars interesting. Seems they service their cars after every drive. Major service this, major service that. Yeah, I know about the belts maintenance intervals, but come on. Nine thousand miles with 2 majors complete? How about the major service already done at 3k miles?

How about us air cooled P-car guys? Annual valve adjustments, 3,000 mile oil changes, full top-end rebuilds with only 80k on the clock and running perfectly? And then you have the caliper cleaners, those dropping engines to "check on things," and those changing spark plugs with only 5,000 miles on them. Why?

Just funny.

[recycled sixtie]

Conversation to wife. I need to change the IMS.
.
Wife. Why?

Husband. In case it breaks.

Some Porsche owners are no better than Ferrari owners.....

Good thread OP.
Guy.

[kaisen]

In many cases it's more about TIME than mileage. Belts and fluids don't last forever. It can be harder on them to sit unused.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by kaisen

In many cases it's more about TIME than mileage. Belts and fluids don't last forever. It can be harder on them to sit unused.

Yup, I tend to shy away from vehicles that don't have reasonable mileage for their age.

Garage Queen does not equate to nothings wrong.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by kaisen

In many cases it's more about TIME than mileage. Belts and fluids don't last forever. It can be harder on them to sit unused.

+1, pieces corrode and rot. Drive a car once a week on a fun trip to a coffee shop for 15 miles a week, 40 weeks out of the year, and its only 600 miles, 5 years is 3,000 miles, would you want to change your tires at 5 years if you drove hard?

[biosurfer1]

I always wonder about that when buying a car. 50,000 miles and the guy has 10's of thousands of dollars in maintenance/service. Either that was wasted money or whats to stop it from costing me the same over the next 50,000?

[Jeff Higgins]

I think most Ferrari owners think it adds to the whole "ness" of owning those things. They have little mechanical knowledge, so an absolutely ludicrous maintenance schedule and cost just adds to the bragging rights among their equally unkowledgable friends. It is, after all (to them) an exotic, high strung, machine - it should require more maintenance than your plebian Chevy... shouldn't it?

One of my favorite Ferrari stories involves a local mechanic friend of mine. A guy brings his early '70's flat 12 powered whatever (pre-Testarrosa) to him out of desperation - he had taken it to the local dealer for service and a tune-up, and it came back running worse. Turns out they had honked up the carb syncing, but that's not the story.

He presented my friend the receipt from the dealer, so he could kind of run through what had been done. 12 spark plugs at about $60 apiece - $720 worth of spark plugs. Poor guy thought they must have been some special Ferrari plugs... they were $3.50 NGK's. Correct for the application, but still just $3.50 NGK's. The fact that the guy never questioned that part of the bill, and the dealer routinely charges that, and no one else must be challenging them on it - says everything one needs to know about Ferrari owners.

[motion]

Yes, Ferrari owners are all douchebags, not car enthusiasts like the rest of us.

[fintstone]

Just a different way of looking at things. Once when we were talking about buying new cars for below the sticker price with my brother and his wife. I related how we went down to the dealer in my primered-up '65 Mustang with the actual cash in my pockets to buy the car I wanted. My wife and I apparently looked so poor that the salesman insulted us and practically threw us off the lot..told me that he couldn't take my old clunker as a trade (I had no intent to trade). On the way home, we happened to stop at a new subdivision and the cash became the down payment for our first house. It is a paid-off rental over thirty years later.

My brother's wife the said that when he went shopping for their new car. The salesman asks, "well, how much can you afford to spend". He said..."I am a wealthy lawyer and can afford any car on this lot". He paid almost 50% over the sticker after be salesman convince him that all popular cars have a "premium" over the suggested retail,

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by motion

Yes, Ferrari owners are all douchebags, not car enthusiasts like the rest of us.

My apologies for possibly adding my two bits to that impression - I didn't mean it that way at all (maybe some did, I dunno...).

I guess the same things I said about Ferrari owners in general would also apply to guys with the spare change to buy, say, brand new GT2's and the like. I think it's fair to say most guys in that end of the pool are not DIY-ers (a broad generalization, and there certainly are exceptions), and are left to bring their car to a dealer for service. Not knowing any better (and frankly caring even less), they happily pay what the dealer charges to keep their pride and joy on the road. Maybe the dealers are a bit less than honest at times, but that's another story.

Myself, I would love to get into a 10-15 year old Ferrari. Buying it is entirely do-able, but maintaining it not so much. Ferrari simply does not cater to DIY-ers, nor is there an aftermarket that does. Kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, in that is this situation a result of no DIY-ers being attracted to the car, or are the DIY-ers not attracted because of the lack of support. I suspect both contribute, but more of the latter.

Ferrari appears to very much want to maintain a certain image, and having guys like me crawling out of them in a pair of Chuck's, baggy shorts, and a greasy tee shirt with grease under my nails probably wouldn't please them in the least. They very much want to keep an air of elitist snobbery surrounding their cars. Part of that is keeping ownership costs high enough to weed out the riff-raff, including DIY-ers. Some owners, unfortunately, are attracted to that image and are more than happy to prop it up. Nothing more fun, though, than running into a real car guy with a Ferrari - they are as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as anyone else, if not a bit more scarce than in Porsche circles.

[onewhippedpuppy]

In many cases it's more about TIME than mileage. Belts and fluids don't last forever. It can be harder on them to sit unused.

I'll take a car that's been driven and maintained over a low mileage garage queen any day. Ferrari or not.

[HardDrive]

I could own a 360, 456, 550, 575 if I wanted. Maranello's are on on my top 10 list. But I just don't see the edge over a P-car other than bragging rights.

I think Ferrari simply treats their customers like trash. I had an experience similar to what Higgins described above. Years ago, I went into Seattle Ferrari, and asked them about getting suspension bushings replaced in a 308. I was younger, and a guy I knew wanted to get rid of his 308, but it needed the bushings done. It was insane. Like $12,000 to replace 32 bushings. I did some research on it, and realized that they were simply little polymer donuts. Since I worked nearby, I went back in, and asked they guy why it was so much $. He told me that a 'special tool' was required to put them in. Yeah, wtf ever. I bought a 82 SC, and never looked back.

[island911]

Makes me think about the insanity many 911 owners have about setting valves to .004" +/- .0000000000001" - or thar 'bouts

They let their imagination (of needed precision) feed their obsession.

it's +/- .002" btw

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My apologies for possibly adding my two bits to that impression - I didn't mean it that way at all (maybe some did, I dunno...).

I guess the same things I said about Ferrari owners in general would also apply to guys with the spare change to buy, say, brand new GT2's and the like. I think it's fair to say most guys in that end of the pool are not DIY-ers (a broad generalization, and there certainly are exceptions), and are left to bring their car to a dealer for service. Not knowing any better (and frankly caring even less), they happily pay what the dealer charges to keep their pride and joy on the road. Maybe the dealers are a bit less than honest at times, but that's another story.

Myself, I would love to get into a 10-15 year old Ferrari. Buying it is entirely do-able, but maintaining it not so much. Ferrari simply does not cater to DIY-ers, nor is there an aftermarket that does. Kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, in that is this situation a result of no DIY-ers being attracted to the car, or are the DIY-ers not attracted because of the lack of support. I suspect both contribute, but more of the latter.

Ferrari appears to very much want to maintain a certain image, and having guys like me crawling out of them in a pair of Chuck's, baggy shorts, and a greasy tee shirt with grease under my nails probably wouldn't please them in the least. They very much want to keep an air of elitist snobbery surrounding their cars. Part of that is keeping ownership costs high enough to weed out the riff-raff, including DIY-ers. Some owners, unfortunately, are attracted to that image and are more than happy to prop it up. Nothing more fun, though, than running into a real car guy with a Ferrari - they are as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as anyone else, if not a bit more scarce than in Porsche circles.

Lots of DIY info for the 348 and 355 on FChat. Heck, some guy just rebuilt his own 612 motor that was hydrolocked. The F355 is the last "analog" car...the 360 (F1 models) require special SD computers to service stuff. After owning my Fcar for a few years, I can say that's easier to work on than the 911. It's crudely made. If you buy the car to keep and drive, it's a no brainer. The issue is if you plan to resell it. I don't plan on ever selling my car. I will certainly be doing my own next "major." If I was planning on selling it, I wouldnt work on it...buyers only want it serviced at a certain shop with parts that came from a yellow box. Just the nature of it.

The rear subframe drops down with 6 bolts. The clutch is a 2 hour job (and done with the engine and tranny in the car), etc.

The good shops say that belts should be done every 30K or 7 years. the belts aren't really the issue, but the hydraulic tensioners are (on a motor that spins to 9K rpm).

Parts are available from aftermarket, as well cross reference (lots of parts were sourced from other cars...which there is an online guide that shows these.) Some things are hard to find, but it's doable.

I paid a chunk of change to have the major done when I bought the car. (I planned on reselling it for a nice profit). ....I've put 10K miles on mine (and driven it "spirited" and have one done a few oil changes. I've spent less than $500 on MX on the car after the major and have had a LOT of fun.

If you guys don't want the "headache" of owning one...just come and drive mine. My old offer still stands...

I took it to lunch today and here are a few pictures.....

[Jeff Higgins]

That's all good news, Mike - thanks for sharing. I do have to say, however, it's a far different picture than that painted by my Ferrari owning acquaintances and that I've gotten by chatting up Ferrari owners at various DE's over the years.

These guys all tell me that Ferrari won't even sell parts (maybe just some parts?) to private owners. They all say that nonsense started with a certain model on, but I'm not sure which one. Even the shop owner I mentioned above says he can't get parts from Ferrari. Comments on that? True, b.s., or somewhere in between?

That, and parts costs I've heard bandied about are simply staggering. The spark plug story is one particularly egregious example, but it seems everything is similarly marked up, even if there is absolutely nothing special about it. It is great to learn there is a cross reference available that could lead a guy to the same part, but without the cost-multiplying yellow box.

And crude? Yes, but that appeals to me, in an odd kind of way. I equate it with "no b.s.". I've had the "opportunity" to wrench on a few over the years for friends and acquaintances (couple of 308's and a Testarrosa) and, yes, they were relatively easy to work on. I think maybe companies with racing in their blood look at maintenance a bit differently than those who do not. "Big" stuff is way easier to do than on your average sedan, just like on our Porsches.

[bell]

Imo of you don't do that kind of mantainence on a ferrari the resale value drops significantly.....which more or less says most everyone who buys a ferrari thinks it will do nothing but appreciate in value......which is probably true for anything pre-355

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

That's all good news, Mike - thanks for sharing. I do have to say, however, it's a far different picture than that painted by my Ferrari owning acquaintances and that I've gotten by chatting up Ferrari owners at various DE's over the years.

These guys all tell me that Ferrari won't even sell parts (maybe just some parts?) to private owners. They all say that nonsense started with a certain model on, but I'm not sure which one. Even the shop owner I mentioned above says he can't get parts from Ferrari. Comments on that? True, b.s., or somewhere in between?

That, and parts costs I've heard bandied about are simply staggering. The spark plug story is one particularly egregious example, but it seems everything is similarly marked up, even if there is absolutely nothing special about it. It is great to learn there is a cross reference available that could lead a guy to the same part, but without the cost-multiplying yellow box.

And crude? Yes, but that appeals to me, in an odd kind of way. I equate it with "no b.s.". I've had the "opportunity" to wrench on a few over the years for friends and acquaintances (couple of 308's and a Testarrosa) and, yes, they were relatively easy to work on. I think maybe companies with racing in their blood look at maintenance a bit differently than those who do not. "Big" stuff is way easier to do than on your average sedan, just like on our Porsches.

Just like our older Porsches gravitate towards the DIY crowd, so do the older ferraris (to an extent). There are different types of owners. Some think that spending $65 for a spark plug is something to brag about. It furthers the "exclusivity" of the brand, and puffs up their ego. To a normal person, it's just stupid. Some owners are truly clueless. They just have no idea...they spend their time being a doctor, lawyer, real estate mogul, etc. For them, the car is an accessory, not really look at the way that we look at our cars. They assume because there is a prancing horse on the hood, that only a dealer or super-high end indy can work on it. It's best that they write the check and let those people work on them.

The parts prices are another thing. You just gotta be smart. When I built my exhaust system, I needed to replace the exhaust gasket donuts. Ferrari wanted about $50 a piece for them. I took the original to napa and got the dimensions. The Victor-Reinz identical part was $2.50, arguably made better than OE. I never tell people that the part is off of a Ferrari when I look for new parts. "It's off of a boat"

The newer models are still subject to Ferrari property laws. Ferrari spends a ton of money to ensure that parts are hard to find. JE makes pistons for the F355. Other places make rods, etc. Lots of good motors can be found from crashed cars. I plan on buying a long block from a wrecked car just to keep in the corner of my garage.

The 3X8 cars have rebuilt kits available with all of the parts. In time, you'll find that people will make these kits for the 348 and 355. Lots of them were made, and lots of them are getting older.

The problem is that a lot of people ASSUME things about the car. Owning it is totally different. I guess I was just lucky. I was young and dumb enough to buy my car. I hemmed and hawed over it for a long time. I looked at Exige's, another 911, etc, but in the end, I figured life's too short not to own a car I dreamed of since I was little.

[Embraer]

In a nutshell...if you can wrench on a 911, you can handle a F355 or older. These cars arent for people who have to write a check for everything...just like a 911 isn't either.

[Embraer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Ferrari appears to very much want to maintain a certain image, and having guys like me crawling out of them in a pair of Chuck's, baggy shorts, and a greasy tee shirt with grease under my nails probably wouldn't please them in the least. They very much want to keep an air of elitist snobbery surrounding their cars. Part of that is keeping ownership costs high enough to weed out the riff-raff, including DIY-ers. Some owners, unfortunately, are attracted to that image and are more than happy to prop it up. Nothing more fun, though, than running into a real car guy with a Ferrari - they are as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as anyone else, if not a bit more scarce than in Porsche circles.

My old neighbor when I lived in LA was the national president of the Ferrari Owners Club (the driving club...not the wine and cheese/detailing club). He owned an original Daytona, now owns a 550. He LOVED having me come to the meetings and events. Young guy, cargo shorts, baseball hat and a t-shirt. I breathed LIFE into their events, and I was certainly the youngest guy there. The older ladies loved me and my stories, etc. They have awards every year, and I was nominated for "most amount of paint chips and wear and tear." Funny as it sounds, but it's the award that gets the most amount of cred in the club.

[kaisen]

And to be fair: any Porsche 997 and newer aren't very DIY friendly either. Sure, you can change your own oil, etc. But many systems require 'learning' when a new part is installed. Even installing a new battery. It's getting difficult to do everything yourself. There are some things that require the proprietary knowledge or tools.