Cycling - training advice for 2 x century

[jhynesrockmtn]

Wait, do I understand this correctly? You are doing a 200 mile ride in 4 weeks with pretty limited training under your belt so far? You are a much braver man than I and hopefully younger and in better shape. What's the longest distance you've ridden recently?

[wayner]

Yup... how bad could it be

In my 50s.

How far have I redden recently?

Two weekends ago I decided to do 25km. I was up on the pedals and sprinting most of it. My rides are usual an hour or so.

Problem was, in order to do this big ride coming up, I had to do a riding clinic a few weeks ago in case I ended up in a group. On my ride I ran into a group that recognized me from that session and convince me to join them for a 75km ride. With my initial ride, their ride and my ride home I ended up at 90km by accident (oops), and I had to sprint home to catch a plane.

The good new s was that it was pretty comfortable. They travelled at 23km/h and I just stayed up front for mod of the ride. The pace wasn't particularly fast but that really boosted my confidence since it was distance, and when I got home I wasn't wrecked.

Last weekend I headed out on my 25km loop again to the west, but on the return leg I just kept going to the east and ended up with a 50km ride at my 25km pace. (Due to the river, a ridge and a low area I managed to have a weird weather system that gave me constant headwind in literally every direction I headed. We joke about that but it was true.) I think I averaged just 20 km/hr (12 miles/hr) but with the wind and three equally spaced hills on that one it was another boost in confidence.

So, now that the snow has stopped, two on road experiences this season and some spin classes over the winter starting in February I should be all set

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Sorry to keep butting in these threads - but I love this stuff and can't resist spewing my bs! a lot of stress at work these days- so typing is therapeutic.

Earlier in the thread I was one talking about riding in hammerfest and such- and someone mentioned that could be disheartnening. -thats a good point. The point was to use spirited group rides as a fun short ride to get the heart rate up in an unpredictable way. You want to suffer- yet be able to catch up at the regouping points. Something 'slightly' above your level, but not 'crushingly' above your level. It could be the "a" group, or the "b" group, or "c" group- whatever pushes you but doesn't totally drop you. If you have group triathlete ride in your neck of the woods- which to me are totally oxymoronic (since it's an individual sport) , but what the heck... they are good because they have the longest steady pulls of the bunch for getting a sustainable zone.

The whole point is that in 4 weeks, you aren't going to gain too much ground, so the whole idea is a series of strategic pushes (whatever works for you) and a lot of resting to make the most of what you got. A good point of trainers is- and you've probably heard this already- is you don't get stronger when you ride, you get stronger when you rest. I made a dumb mistake before a state-wide ride from college to home (during college- I really hated the bus) of riding hard and hard and hard, and then the big ride. There was no rest. Stupid when I look back on it.


When I typed up my usual garbaaaggge this am- I was thinking in terms of each ride isolating something different. A comfortable glycogen/fat long distance pace, a comfortable fat burning long distance pace, a short ride to make the legs burn and build muscle strength, and a short cardio ride to improve cardio, in the backdrop of the longer rides experimenting with eating and such to find out what works for you.

Ride day of course staying strategically low in the hr zone- like another poster mentioned, to not outburn your ability to take in energy. The intense workout efforts are to raise your ceiling slightly- so your "easy" efforts have more cushion between easy and all out effort.

Also in these rides- trying to make things calorically neutral, with a strong emphasis on replenishing nutrients quickly after a ride. I always like endurox, but a lot of people would just drink a coke right after riding to keep the muscle glycogen up. It really makes a difference in recovery.

As for rest stops- I always try to keep them short and as NASCAR pitstop like as possible. Get out of your rythmm and it can be hard to get back in again. Especially late in the ride.

Also- funny comment above about partying the night before. My favorite MTB has a "rock star award"- given to the person who puts in a heroic all night partying performance, who then miraculously follows up the next day with a strong riding perfomance.

Every ride should have one!

[wayner]

I'm enjoying the banter

I'm stuck in a hotel room , its crappy outside and I have no intention of going for a run tonight...

[herr_oberst]

Stupid question here, are these centuries measured in miles or kilometers?

[wayner]

177 KM each way (109 miles x 2)

In U.S. terms it would be roughly a century. In Canadian terms its a ride to the next town (which just happens to be 177km away)

The good news is that as long as I make it there I will have motivation to ride back, other wise I am stranded out of town and I have a plane to catch the next morning, so I shall return

P.S.

For reference:
25km = 15.5 miles
50km=31 miles
90 km = 56 miles

My 23km/hr ride for 90km felt ok (14mph for 56 miles), I felt that I had a lot more in the tank, but who knows if I had pushed the pace a just a bit more if I would have struggled at the end? My sense is that I need to do that again soon and up the pace to find out, as a bench mark if nothing else.

Seriously though, these short rides are one thing because they are over before I am depleted. Longer is where I have to learn a bunch.

[zakthor]

I also have been training for a difficult race and working on my feeding, trying different things to see what works for me. I used to think in terms of roast beef sammich, apples, cheese, etc, real food, but I was pretty consistently bonking after 3-4 hours.

This season I've been feeding myself with carbs at roughly 300 calories/hour. The difference is amazing and I'm able to do hill intervals after 4 hours. At first I was using sports bars but they are difficult to swallow after #7 or 8. The key is to eat frequently, I have 300 calories 15 minutes ahead of the ride, then 150 every 30 minutes.

Last weekend I tried a product called "Tailwind", its a carb powder that you mix with water and drink. Tasted good for the 7.5 hours of riding and I felt fantastic the entire race. It is expensive for sugar food, about $1/100 calories, so I'll only use it for important races.

If I were you I'd immediately start to explore the various modern endurance foods that are available to you, see if you can find one you like. Examples are: Perpetuum, Heed, CarbPro. I'm sure there are more. Try getting a few carbs in you at a more frequent interval, it worked wonders for me. Being able to drink them is very convenient though mixing is a bit of a chore.

The other thing is that its pretty much impossible to eat too many electrolytes. Your body is great at removing excess salt, but its important you have enough.

The triathaletes at slowtwitch.com are fanatical experts about feeding. Research there.

Good luck!

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Ok couple of old bike stats and wht the hell theymean:

1St- a typical road ride. Stupid sprints/trashtalk a good time- look a the heartrate (top red line)


It's all over the place. In this program the horizontal lines are set as follows- bottom zone- nothing, next up- fat- next up mixed glycogen/fat, next up - glycogen- top red line/above anearobic. This ride pushed me into anearobic 7 times. It's f' chaos.

2nd- time trial:

25 mph/ for one hour. (40 kph)- watch how the hr and the top red line are almost parallel- The HR runs straight across. You can't get that with a group ride- you have to be in the zone. Also notice the green line- it's parallel- and it's power, so power and hr were good. Pink line was speed. noticed how it dropped coming back in headwind. This was as perfect workout as it gets.

3rd- another time trial:



Again- one hour- again- look at HR- it's at the threshold. See the green line below- that's power. Look how that's straight across. about 325 watts/ back in the day

4rth- long distance:
-
this is where you want to be- total fat burning zone, with mixed glycogen/fat as the barrier. 110 miles, about 20 mph, 4000 kcal

5th- another good long distance ride:

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Another good long distance in fat burning land....

[wayner]

Here is my experience from last year: 2015 with little training.
Lots of mistakes. Soaking up the knowledge you guys are sharing for this year to make it even better.

2015 Strategy - leave early, that way all day long there will be groups catching me that can give me a tow

Reality 1 - I got absorbed by a big group before I even left the parking lot. They surrounded me and they alll pulled over to wait for someone. They pulled me over with them. I had to say pardon me excuse me pardon me to get free of their parked group. Sheesh, What a way to start!

Reality 2: The first two hours were great. I rode at my own pace all alone.

Reality 3: For the next bit I tagged on with a fast group. I had no business sticking with them but they were friendly. I was way above my pace for over an hour. I arrived at lunch feeling great, a little sweaty but great (if spin class was over and I could go home).



oh, and I finally got rid of that beer and airport food that was sitting in my belly since the night before. Does beer go bad?
I evacuated the washroom of all participants. I suddenly felt weak. Luckily after I found shower stall.

I ate a bunch of ham sandwiches. I wandered around wondering what to do, and I remounted.



Reality 4: almost an hour beyond the lunch stop we hit the first monster hill. I climbed, I geared down , I squiggled up the hill a bit, I walked, I couldn;t walk, I found a rock, and I drank water for 1/2 an hour as my lunch digested. I dropped a fizzy pil in one water bottle. I got back on my bike and conquered that monster hill. half an hour earlier I literally had a hard time crawling up onto that rock and thought I was done, but now I made it to the top.

I bought a banana from the ice cream shop along the way. It wasn't an official stop. No one stops there. They don't sell bananas. They sell banana splits. They didn't know what to charge me. They charged me 10 cents for the banana.

I had a coffee. I didn't know what my next plan would be. I didn't know why I bought a coffee but I was thinking my day was done. I became official photographer for any group that came along. Eventually I got back on my bike. I tried to hang with one of the groups whose picture I took. They invited me. They kept the pace down, I couldn't hang. I dropped back and sent them on their way.

Lesson1: I don't know how to pace myself and I don't know how to eat

I'm done. Suddenly a line fromm the movie "Ride for Glory" comes into my head from two weeks earlier. Just spin. The rest of the day I just spun in low gear. Ridiculously low. I just spun. Up hill I spun, downhill I spun, on the flats I spun, pretty much the lowest gear possible. I must have looked silly, cartoonish, but I spun. I just had to keep my legs moving or I would crawl into a nice comfortable ditch. honestly I don't remember much other than spinning in the lowest gear possible and looking for lower. Time went by unusually fast. I don't remember the hills but there were lots. I think hours in a boring spin class with no scenery trained my brain to turn off.

I started peeing a lot. I don't remember having to pee all morning.
I had drank four bottles water, two before and two after, and the two fruit juices at lunch, plus that coffee later.

Final leg:
Last rest stop I caught the group that dropped me.
I took more pictures for them, I sent them on their way again.
I bought another banana

By now my legs were coming back. I was surprised they could actually come back.
Back on the road a ways I got passed by a small group of four.

I got passed a while later by a tandem.
I hooked on to the back of the tandem. The tandem cranked it up and up and down hills we were flying. I ride a 12/25 rear gear. On the flats I ran out of gear. On the down hill my bike was making a wind inspired WOOOOOOOO! sound. We passed the group that passed me.

I lost the tandem draft.
The group of four men and women passed me again. This time I tucked in with the group, sticking with them until the end.

2015: That was an exhilarating end to day 1. 177 km down.
A beer, a bunch of food (seven chicken breasts, then I found the pasta but had no room), a lot of panic: How will I get home

In hindsight, I ran out of energy because I didn't eat until lunch time. BONK!!
I rode beyond my pace in that late morning group DUMB!!

If the ride had been over by lunch my day would have been complete, and I'd be ready for a nap, but I was half way there, and the big hills were yet to come EVEN DUMBER!!

I don't understand why my legs came back late in the day.
Had I recharged my batteries with all that low gear spinning?
Had my lunch finally worked its way through my system?

The good news, none of my body parts hurt. All were tired, none hurt. My bike setup was perfect

Day one 2015 was in the books. My first ever distance ride, 177kms down.
Day two had its own share of adventures., but thats a story for another day once I get feedback on my day 1 fiasco that by the end felt disturbingly great.

Please, keep the feedback coming. I want to make this year better.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Two final workouts for trainer:

Who says trainers can't be good workouts- I think they are better. look at the structure:
Workout one- pick a gear- ride it for ten minutes, then upshift- repeat, upshift, repeat, until destruction! This works the legs and kicks up aerobic threshold:

(p/s the joke here is cadence- the blue line- look in how zone "7" marked in pen the cadence is all over the place- at that point I was out of the saddle sprinting trying to maintain power- I couldn't sit anymore)
Two:
Intervals- strong medicine. one minute on. one minute off. look how the HR goes anearobic, recovers, then up//down again, on a slightly increasing sloping until destruction!!!! ps- destruction occurs when recovery (in areobic) climbs to anearobic- so everything is anearobic-look at the bottom of the peaks and how it comes up to the anearobic horizontal red line



These are two great workouts which you can't reproduce on a group road ride (remember the one all over the place).... Think in terms of how the road rides go up and down- and how the structured rides have a horizontal HR. THINK HORIZONTAL!!!!!!

[wayner]

Thanks Leaky!

I'm going to spend some time looking at those charts to better understand them.
Some look a lot like my spin classes (crank it up crank it up some more, repeat...).

With all your tips I'm interested in your cycling history

BTW, a few weeks ago I read the book how bad do you want it
(Aparently the only answer is MORE!)

Aside from whatever thoughts it might have given me, I enjoyed the stories.



In the last number of weeks I've been able to literally shut off my consciousness of my leg pain and grind through a spin class with no more resistance left to be had on the bike. This really has made a difference on the road in my last two rides when I compare my training rides to the same route the year before. I'm holding higher gears and much longer.

Once I got my heart and lungs working well last year, my legs just couldn't carry me as long. They were my weak link. Now they are big. I used to have chicken legs. I hate my spin instructor. Evil!

https://www.velopress.com/books/how-bad-do-you-want-it/

Originally Posted by zakthor

This season I've been feeding myself with carbs at roughly 300 calories/hour. The difference is amazing and I'm able to do hill intervals after 4 hours. At first I was using sports bars but they are difficult to swallow after #7 or 8. The key is to eat frequently, I have 300 calories 15 minutes ahead of the ride, then 150 every 30 minutes.

Last weekend I tried a product called "Tailwind", its a carb powder that you mix with water and drink. Tasted good for the 7.5 hours of riding and I felt fantastic the entire race. It is expensive for sugar food, about $1/100 calories, so I'll only use it for important races.

If I were you I'd immediately start to explore the various modern endurance foods that are available to you, see if you can find one you like. Examples are: Perpetuum, Heed, CarbPro. I'm sure there are more. Try getting a few carbs in you at a more frequent interval, it worked wonders for me. Being able to drink them is very convenient though mixing is a bit of a chore.


The triathaletes at slowtwitch.com are fanatical experts about feeding. Research there.

Good luck!

Thanks!
I'm also going to get a lot more serious about learning to eat.

I was also gagging on that fizzy pill drink in the afternoon so I've got to think through alternatives for electrolytes.

[berettafan]

i'm not an expert AT ALL but when I ride I pace myself with a heart rate monitor.

for example I know that 150+ for any length of time will require a fair amount of recovery time (say 120bpm) whereas 130-140 is a nice pace and rate for distance.

talking century rides then you need to be fueled up BEFORE you think you need it and again pace the intake carefully.

[stuartj]

Two consecutive days of 170km is quite an undertaking for we men of certain age, and I dips me lid. I can only add to this thread that Ive found HIIT (Tabata interval type training) tremendously useful, but I'm not sure how much good it can do four weeks out.

Contemplating this makes me think of the challenge of the TdF. Three weeks of these distances, every day at speeds that boggle. I know theyre all in their 20s and 30s, they are all pros, they are all drugged to the eyeballs and now all riding bikes with hidden motors. But still, three weeks, what a feat of endurance.

Good luck.

[intakexhaust]

Right on, Stuart. I don't follow the TdF that much but have always appreciated the evolving and history of it. Doping was done nearly back to the beginning years. All sorts of concoctions, hard stuff that was legal back when.

That topic aside, the riders and stories are fascinating. Little did those riders know about the body. Then factor limited support, lack of rabid fan controls to brutal road shenanigans, etc. The reads about on the bike or off the bike between stages are something else. I honestly couldn't say whether todays pro rider are really that much better but they do have vast understanding in the science of it. Those from years ago were animals.

[Grimm]

Not much to add . . . . lots of great advice in this thread.

I did the Davis Double three times with times of 14 hours, 13 hours, and finally, 12 hours. I was in my mid-40's at the time, and had had 2 heart attacks and a quad by-pass.

My training included a 110 mile ride every Sat for the 2 months leading up to the double, and several 30 mile rides during the week. Three and two weeks before the event I did a 140 and 160 mile ride, respectively.

As others have said, pace, fluids, and fuel are the keys. And, as others have also said, don't get caught up in a group going too fast. I did that one year and was averaging 20 mph through 120 miles. Then I bonked and had to limp in for 80 miles. It was devastating.

Regarding stops, I stopped around 4 or 5 times just to get water and fuel. I'm not sure there is any benefit to a prolonged stop, or a snooze.

Good luck, man! I'm jealous.

[Grimm]

Oh yeah, if you can tuck in behind a tandem, jump on it. Seriously. Those guys pull you along like a freight train.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Grimm

I did the Davis Double three times with times of 14 hours, 13 hours, and finally, 12 hours.

Wow. That's a LONG day on the bike. Or is that over 2 days? Still a bloody long day.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by stuartj

Wow. That's a LONG day on the bike. Or is that over 2 days? Still a bloody long day.

That's non-stop. It really wasn't that bad. We would start early in the morning and finish early evening. I saw many riders laying on tables getting IV's afterwards, but I never did that.

One year it was raining non-stop during the month leading up to the Double so I had to train in-doors. One day my wife left around 8 in the morning and came home at 4 in the afternoon. I had been on the trainer all day, and hadn't gotten off even once. She walked in the door, glanced at me, said "you're in idiot", and just walked on by.

Now that was a Looonnnnggggg day.

[Otter74]

I was going to chime in yesterday but there is a lot of good advice here so I'm not sure I can add anything that hasn't already been said.

Like you, I used to not know how to pace myself. I grew up riding in Atlanta, which is hilly but all the hills are short. Then Michigan, which is flat. I went out to Colorado and would spend much of a day riding the P2P and would kill myself 1/3 of the way up the long grades, trying to do it in the middle ring - I have never been much of a spinner, and was used to a fairly high pace. Eventually figured out that it was easy if I used the granny ring, spun more, and slowed down. Went back some years later and it was all easy-peasy.

You don't have much time to train, but I think if you can do half the distance easily by the week before the event, you will be OK with the full distance, even though the difference feels bigger than 2x.

As far as food goes, I will mention that I've found dill pickles to be very good for electrolytes, given that I vastly prefer real food to gels and goo and so on.